AvWeek: Explore other options beyond F-35

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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popcorn

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Unread post19 Oct 2012, 21:30

delvo wrote:
If they want those jammers on bombing missions, they'll put them in the bomber. It's big. There's room.


Perhaps though putting them on a sufficiently long-legged UAV escort has been suggested as a means to make the LRS-B more affordable.
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Unread post19 Oct 2012, 22:36

delvo wrote:There's also a difference between direct, immediate "support" as in flying the same mission together with you, and indirect "support" as in being just part of the whole complex multi-layered military system in which all parts have roles to play that are complementary to the rest.

The idea of a long-range stealth bomber needing to be escorted by a shorter-ranged pre-stealth fighter is just plain silly. The bomber's ability to fly farther than the fighter can would go to waste, and even within the narrower zone where they can both fly, the pre-stealth plane would be not only giving itself away but also betraying the stealth plane. (And that's without even considering the fact that you're suggesting that the Air Force would deliberately plan to render itself dependent on the Navy for air operations.)

If they want those jammers on bombing missions, they'll put them in the bomber. It's big. There's room.


If you want the plane to remain stealthily, then you don't put emitters on the aircraft you want to hide.
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Unread post19 Oct 2012, 23:37

maus92 wrote:
delvo wrote:There's also a difference between direct, immediate "support" as in flying the same mission together with you, and indirect "support" as in being just part of the whole complex multi-layered military system in which all parts have roles to play that are complementary to the rest.

The idea of a long-range stealth bomber needing to be escorted by a shorter-ranged pre-stealth fighter is just plain silly. The bomber's ability to fly farther than the fighter can would go to waste, and even within the narrower zone where they can both fly, the pre-stealth plane would be not only giving itself away but also betraying the stealth plane. (And that's without even considering the fact that you're suggesting that the Air Force would deliberately plan to render itself dependent on the Navy for air operations.)

If they want those jammers on bombing missions, they'll put them in the bomber. It's big. There's room.


If you want the plane to remain stealthily, then you don't put emitters on the aircraft you want to hide.


The MALD also will be playing a role for the penetrating stealth aircraft(bomber) to accomplish the goals your discussing. Now that the jammer version of MALD is underway the bomber/striker can in the future release remote radar/IR targets and remote emitters while remaining as stealthy as possible. An escort emitter or built in emitter would also be handy to have if you absolutely need it. As long as the MALD price remains under control these other expensive solutions (separate escort jammer/emitters) are only required for the first 5-10 days of the war while the air defense network is still fully intact.
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Unread post19 Oct 2012, 23:57

I would also imagine the Bomber/F-35 using it's on-board ESM to analyze the RF threat and then beaming commands via MADL to the MALD/-J. That way the MALD/J can spend more energy on decoy/jam functions.

This fit's nicely with the F-35's notional Blk5 "Cooperative EW".
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Unread post20 Oct 2012, 00:26

Does anyone here really have a handle on the capabilities and limitations of modern jammers? I mean... to hear some people talk, they're like magic boxes that make VLO totally unnecessary.
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Unread post20 Oct 2012, 03:32

maus92 wrote:Sweetman rebuts Thompson in an ARES post:

"Wrongheaded? Really?"

"There’s one important element missing from Thompson’s piece and one that is strangely hard to find. The missing piece is a link to what we actually said, which in many respects is not what Thompson is picking a fight with.

What is hard to find is where Forbes reminds its readers who Thompson works for. It’s there, but in the kind of typeface usually associated with writing Title 10 of the US Code on the back of a postage stamp, and then only if you click in the right place."

http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx? ... e678980c57


Ave week pays sweetman to write about other writers? :roll:
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Unread post20 Oct 2012, 03:35

1st503rdsgt wrote:Does anyone here really have a handle on the capabilities and limitations of modern jammers? I mean... to hear some people talk, they're like magic boxes that make VLO totally unnecessary.


Anyone who would wouldn't be talking about it.
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Unread post20 Oct 2012, 18:59

1st503rdsgt wrote:Does anyone here really have a handle on the capabilities and limitations of modern jammers? I mean... to hear some people talk, they're like magic boxes that make VLO totally unnecessary.


They are "magic boxes." Some Israeli sources predict that counter-stealth systems will be developed and fielded in ~5-10 years, thus reducing the impact of stealthy shaped air vehicles and materials. Electronic attack/warfare equipment and techniques can be fielded faster than entirely new aircraft, so they will become more important as defensive systems are improved.
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Unread post20 Oct 2012, 21:33

maus92 wrote:
1st503rdsgt wrote:Does anyone here really have a handle on the capabilities and limitations of modern jammers? I mean... to hear some people talk, they're like magic boxes that make VLO totally unnecessary.

They are "magic boxes." Some Israeli sources predict that counter-stealth systems will be developed and fielded in ~5-10 years, thus reducing the impact of stealthy shaped air vehicles and materials.

Someone should tell that to the Russians and Chinese. Seems a magic box of stealth would be cheaper than their current efforts. How strange... considering that they should be the ones most aware of how useless VLO will be in "~5-10 years."
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Unread post20 Oct 2012, 23:30

maus92 wrote:They are "magic boxes." Some Israeli sources predict that counter-stealth systems will be developed and fielded in ~5-10 years, thus reducing the impact of stealthy shaped air vehicles and materials. Electronic attack/warfare equipment and techniques can be fielded faster than entirely new aircraft, so they will become more important as defensive systems are improved.

Actually, the Sukhoi targeting FLIR (OLS) system is somewhat effective against a VLO stealth jet. That assumes the VLO F-22 or F-35 doesn't fire an AMRAAM/HARM first using its sensor fused avionics.

The Israelis and everyone else knows that L-Band radar with advanced digital signal processing has a chance of detecting a stealth jet. If XYZ adversary started using such L-Band radar (and including older analog radar) it would be detected by said "magic boxes" and the pilots would engage and destroy.
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Unread post21 Oct 2012, 00:03

neurotech wrote:Actually, the Sukhoi targeting FLIR (OLS) system is somewhat effective against a VLO stealth jet. That assumes the VLO F-22 or F-35 doesn't fire an AMRAAM/HARM first using its sensor fused avionics.


Add the Super Hornet to that "sensor fused" list.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... et-376973/
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Unread post21 Oct 2012, 00:44

maus92 wrote:
neurotech wrote:Actually, the Sukhoi targeting FLIR (OLS) system is somewhat effective against a VLO stealth jet. That assumes the VLO F-22 or F-35 doesn't fire an AMRAAM/HARM first using its sensor fused avionics.


Add the Super Hornet to that "sensor fused" list.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... et-376973/

I was worried about being actually "on topic" in suggesting the F/A-18E/F could actually be an alternative to a F-35C carrier strike aircraft :D

I wonder if Boeing will do an airframe "low drag" update to the Super Hornet. I also haven't heard any plans to incorporate 360 degree EODAS into the F/A-18E/F platform yet, but the Block III avionics has growth potential for some sort of EODAS.
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Unread post21 Oct 2012, 15:26

Super Hornet International Roadmap: EOTS/DAS-like system, conformal fuel tanks, up to 3xLO/LD(low drag) weapons pods (that can hold 1x2,000# class weapon, 2x500# class weapons, or 4XAIM-120 AMRAAM), new F-35esq cockpit, 26K# thrust class engines. So yes, there are plans to give the "Rhino" not only "EODAS" but a host of other upgrades.
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Unread post21 Oct 2012, 16:00

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Super Hornet International Roadmap: EOTS/DAS-like system, conformal fuel tanks, up to 3xLO/LD(low drag) weapons pods (that can hold 1x2,000# class weapon, 2x500# class weapons, or 4XAIM-120 AMRAAM), new F-35esq cockpit, 26K# thrust class engines. So yes, there are plans to give the "Rhino" not only "EODAS" but a host of other upgrades.


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Unread post21 Oct 2012, 16:24

popcorn wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Super Hornet International Roadmap: EOTS/DAS-like system, conformal fuel tanks, up to 3xLO/LD(low drag) weapons pods (that can hold 1x2,000# class weapon, 2x500# class weapons, or 4XAIM-120 AMRAAM), new F-35esq cockpit, 26K# thrust class engines. So yes, there are plans to give the "Rhino" not only "EODAS" but a host of other upgrades.


No bucks, no Buck Rogers.. :D


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