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RE: Re: RE: Re: AvWeek: Explore other options beyond F-35

Unread postPosted: 16 Oct 2012, 03:04
by spazsinbad
Is there NOT a 'Friends of APA' website or e-mail list? Contribute to ELP comment section - you will be valued. :D (Commented via wristfone.)

RE: Re: RE: Re: AvWeek: Explore other options beyond F-35

Unread postPosted: 16 Oct 2012, 20:10
by XanderCrews
I think there needs to be some clarification about CAS.

A COIN Aircraft and a CAS aircraft are different things:

A COIN Aircraft can be a Tucano, AC-130, UAV, NVG equipped P-47 (LULZ) or even an A-1 skyraider, UAV or helicopter. Its stands no chance beyond small arms opposition.

A CAS Aircraft is expected to be SHOT AT. A lot. And with more than small arms. If CAS wasn't dangerous, why does an A-10 need armor and redundant systems?

Charging the F-35 with being poor at COIN is not really much of a slight because even an A-10 is overkill in our NVG P-47 COIN scenario.

And speaking of, this idea of taking a 1940's air force (that suffered high casualties at the time, against equivalent 1940's tech) with NVGs against a force thats armed with 1980s/1990's tech, and thinking for one second that the 1940s force would "still win, despite casualties" Has got to be completely delusional. America does not win wars when casualties increase. they stop and pull out, withdraw, exit strategy whatever you want to call it. Could the US win Militarily? Im sure if we threw enough corpses at the situation we could. Would the Public ever let that happen? No. and hell No.

If you think for one second that this NVG P-47 Schwienfurt raid against MiGs and SAMs would end in anything other than disaster, annihilation, and a high body count, you have really got to read a history book or two. The US took thousands of casualties in vastly more superior aircraft against early generations SAMs and AAA in the 1960/70s. It was so bad that after the War people starting asking questions like "Is there a way to make an aircraft invisible to radar?"

Re: RE: Re: AvWeek: Explore other options beyond F-35

Unread postPosted: 16 Oct 2012, 22:24
by hb_pencil
archeman wrote:
rkap wrote:
velocityvector - Respectfully, that is simplistic. A loitering, relatively stationary, system should enjoy greater probability detecting


You sum up a simple situation very well. Raised by others earlier in the forum. The Mafia as usual resort to personal attacks or go off topic or respond with complicated tactics as if everything can be planned to suit the F35. .


Spaz, writewing and HBpencil,

So I guess you guys are in the MAFIA of some sort as described above.
Does that come with free drinks and big hair dames with leopard-print undies and all the rest???
If so, where do the rest of us outsiders sign up?


All you need to do is save all the UPCs from all the Lockheed Martin Koolaid you drink and send them in. I like the purple one.

The perks are as you describe them, but I think Loren gets his own L-1011 to be shuttled around in that is fitted with a koolaid dispenser.

RE: Re: RE: Re: AvWeek: Explore other options beyond F-35

Unread postPosted: 16 Oct 2012, 22:50
by velocityvector
So the Cuban at the show has a gynormous woodley wilson and Fredo gets a free but terminal boat ride for exposing his brother to the shock of a losing comparison and the dangers presented. Nothing to see here, move along, move along. "You broke my heart." (brotherly death smooch)

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: AvWeek: Explore other options beyond F-

Unread postPosted: 16 Oct 2012, 22:59
by HaveVoid
velocityvector wrote:So the Cuban at the show has a gynormous woodley wilson and Fredo gets a free but terminal boat ride for exposing his brother to the shock of a losing comparison and the dangers presented. Nothing to see here, move along, move along. "You broke my heart." (brotherly death smooch)


You totally lost me here :?:

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: AvWeek: Explore other options beyon

Unread postPosted: 17 Oct 2012, 00:05
by count_to_10
Godfather reference?

Re: RE: Re: AvWeek: Explore other options beyond F-35

Unread postPosted: 17 Oct 2012, 00:30
by sferrin
hb_pencil wrote:All you need to do is save all the UPCs from all the Lockheed Martin Koolaid you drink and send them in. I like the purple one.


What do you get for sending in UPCs from all the Bill Sweetman Kool-Aid you drink?

RE: Re: RE: Re: AvWeek: Explore other options beyond F-35

Unread postPosted: 17 Oct 2012, 00:36
by spazsinbad
Here is another go (as a 'dog returns to its vomit' - famous Oz Parliament saying):

Editorial: U.S. Technology Leadership Tested AWST by Sweetman 15 Oct 2012

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.asp ... 502357.xml

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: AvWeek: Explore other options b

Unread postPosted: 17 Oct 2012, 00:55
by velocityvector
count_to_10 wrote:Godfather reference?

Yes. An inartfully attempted one. Admit. Folks were going all "cosa nostra" and I thought it was funny. I may try again, hopefully not :>)

Re: RE: Re: AvWeek: Explore other options beyond F-35

Unread postPosted: 17 Oct 2012, 02:25
by XanderCrews
sferrin wrote:
hb_pencil wrote:All you need to do is save all the UPCs from all the Lockheed Martin Koolaid you drink and send them in. I like the purple one.


What do you get for sending in UPCs from all the Bill Sweetman Kool-Aid you drink?


He lets you pick your flavor (Gripen, Super Hornet, P-47NVG etc.) so you feel special

spazsinbad wrote:Here is another go (as a 'dog returns to its vomit' - famous Oz Parliament saying):

Editorial: U.S. Technology Leadership Tested AWST by Sweetman 15 Oct 2012

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.asp ... 502357.xml


FTFA:

It wasn't that long ago that the U.S. essentially dominated the defense industry.


Is the F-35 not the largest weapons program in history and dominating the export market? even the Korean competition is between american aircraft.

It is an odd statement from someone who advocates European arms--which is shrinking BTW, because people are still choosing American F-35s over European rivals. I don't think the B-2 was ever built for export, so its not a legit gripe. F-35s, late model apaches, advanced F-16s, F-15s, Abrams, and dozens of other systems are still selling in huge numbers. Its not like the F-22 wasnt sought after either. The US just chose not to export it. The whole premise of that section only works if you ignore the F-35 on the global market, A system he loathes and crusades against. Bill can't whine about the F-35 ruining western air power by equipping nearly every allied air force, then complain that the US doesn't sell enough of them to dominate in exports. It can't be both. The US has the tech lead with the F-22 and F-35 so the title of the article is instantly suspect, Russia and China still have catching up to do, and the amount their aircraft will be exported is still unknown besides the T-50 to india

I'm sorry sometimes I ramble. Let me put it like this:

Bill: The US is losing its Tech/export advantage!

what about the F-35?

Bill: The F-35 is a disaster and we should be buying Upgraded aircraft from the 1970s! Everyone should be buying the Gripen too!!

He can't have it both ways. Only on Bill's planet does the above make sense.

The rest is the same crap that others have been saying since December 26th 1991. :roll: these are the same "soul searching" questions the US Military was asking throughout the 1990s before sept 11th. Now that afghanistan is done, those questions return.

Welcome to the 90s Bill!! :D :D :roll:

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: AvWeek: Explore other options beyond F-

Unread postPosted: 17 Oct 2012, 15:37
by maus92
Prinz_Eugn wrote:Loren is a shill, but that doesn't mean his points aren't valid.


I like when he sheds some blame on P&W, and of course the customer. His job is to present his client Lockheed Martin in the best light possible. In Forbes, he can do this and get away with it - because most of its readership are general business people - an audience not expected to know the details of F-35 program.

Re: RE: Re: AvWeek: Explore other options beyond F-35

Unread postPosted: 17 Oct 2012, 17:39
by hb_pencil
sferrin wrote:
hb_pencil wrote:All you need to do is save all the UPCs from all the Lockheed Martin Koolaid you drink and send them in. I like the purple one.


What do you get for sending in UPCs from all the Bill Sweetman Kool-Aid you drink?


Vinegar

RE: Re: RE: Re: AvWeek: Explore other options beyond F-35

Unread postPosted: 17 Oct 2012, 17:57
by luke_sandoz
I'm starting to feel sorry for Sweetman.

He made up his mind a long time ago and now he can't change his mind despite the facts changing.

He reminds me of Lance Armstrong . . a bed made years ago and now he's being abandoned by anyone with a modicum of common sense.

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: AvWeek: Explore other options beyond F-

Unread postPosted: 17 Oct 2012, 18:01
by SpudmanWP
maus92 wrote:because most of its readership are general business people - an audience not expected to know the details of F-35 program.

And also an audience that understand how these programs work and do not have knee-jerk reactions to every APA internet vomit fest. They are also likely to have been subject to these kinds of problems when dealing with the government programs.

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: AvWeek: Explore other options beyond F-

Unread postPosted: 17 Oct 2012, 18:01
by XanderCrews
maus92 wrote:
an audience not expected to know the details of F-35 program.


Thats Sweetman's audience, and Loren shouldn't cut into it.