F-35B UK SRVL info - Updated when new/old info available

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quicksilver

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Unread post18 Oct 2018, 22:19

Stevie, there are a couple pics here that give one a better perspective on how tight things are on the flight deck of a large amphib. There may be some foreshortening effect from the lens but not much...

I think there is 57' feet from the deck-edge scupper to the foul line. One cannot see the foul line in those pics but it is a (painted) red and white segmented line the runs parallel to the deck edge near the island. The white gear that you see next to the island in the pics are just outside (on the 'safe' side of) the foul line.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=54421&p=401681&hilit=lha+flight+deck#p401681

Here's another link to a pic that shows the foul line and the space available in the landing area.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q ... 4053143691
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Unread post18 Oct 2018, 23:07

:devil: Are those 'A's in the GOOGLE image above from the RADAR interfering with digital camera? :doh: ALAMing.
"A CH-53 Super Stallion helicopter lands on the flight deck of future amphibious assault ship USS America (LHA 6) while in transit to San Francisco Bay for the Navy’s 34th annual fleet week. During the visit, the crew is scheduled to participate in a variety of community relations projects throughout the Bay area. America is scheduled to be ceremoniously commissioned near the end of fleet week, Oct. 11. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 2nd Class Ryan Riley/Released) San Francisco First Responders visit 141006-N-MZ309-015 - Image ID: HFD227
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-a-ch- ... 79423.html

:mrgreen: FireFlies appear to have got into the camera for next photo. :roll: Island clearance from 'wall' visible. Next USS Wasp view in F-35 Travel Simulator?: http://media2.fdncms.com/sevendaysvt/im ... 77fa45.jpg

LOTsa grafix for USMC mini carrier with deck/hangar plans: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... -schem.htm
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LHA USS America Alamy SuperStallionDeck HFD227 ED.jpg
AV-8B USMCharrierNightLHAdeck.jpg
techissue6-3-29010913f377fa45.jpg
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Unread post19 Oct 2018, 00:18

Wonder is it's an optical illusion or the sim people got the tram lineup wrong? (Tram is the wide yellow line referenced for lineup on TO/Lndg; in the real world, it is off-center)
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Unread post19 Oct 2018, 01:03

Yeah. The camera is off center to the panels so already there is a perspective error - we don't see what sim pilot sees. There is a great photo of an LHA from an approach angle down the centerline - I may find it soon.... Different views but not THE ONE here: https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/sto ... ica-lha-6/ An old LHA pic in this: http://seabeemagazine.navylive.dodlive. ... pter-8.pdf (1.5Mb)
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Harriers USS Peleliu LHA 45 astern above.jpg
Last edited by spazsinbad on 19 Oct 2018, 01:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post19 Oct 2018, 01:08

Actually, not referring to the pilot's line-up. Rather, the position of the tram in the area between the deck edge and the foul line. The tram is off-center in the real world; I've forgotten the reason. You can see it most clearly in the pic with the '53s.
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Unread post19 Oct 2018, 01:11

Here's a good shot --

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/im ... 3hgbxr.png

Spaz, the black and white of Peleliu highlights the unique arrangement of that class of (earlier) LHA. They had flight deck cutouts for the gun mounts; you can see the CIWS port side aft, and if you look closely those forward, both port and starboard. At one time the forward stations mounted 5" guns. Not sure about what was aft. The tram line was actually slightly angled to give the aircraft the appropriate separation from the cutout at bow exit. Important for Harrier with the outriggers positioned where they were -- notably closer for AV-8A given the wing tip position.

You will also notice that there was no room whatsoever between the foul line and the island on that class LHA...
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Unread post19 Oct 2018, 01:52

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Unread post20 Oct 2018, 02:26

AV-8B NATOPS has this graphic (it could be improved more but wot the hell I'll attach the page PDFwise riteWayUP! also.
http://www.filefactory.com/file/5mxvt1q ... ndbook.pdf (28Mb) AV-8B NATOPS 1984 Preliminary
AV-8A NATOPS: 1973 https://www.filefactory.com/file/4cjegc ... AV8A-1.pdf (80Mb)
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DECKmarkingsX3 NATOPS AV-8B Flight Handbook.pdf
(70.43 KiB) Downloaded 395 times
DECKmarkingsX3 NATOPS AV-8B Flight HandbookTIFrotated.gif
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Unread post21 Oct 2018, 00:15

Now that SRVL is a reality and given the HEAPS of info about it perhaps this video of F-35B vHUD in sim makes more sense?

F-35B SRVL Warton Shipborne Rolling Vertical Land Sim ZOOM [watch nozzles move after T/D F-35B ICON BTM LEFT]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8M7RcWuZMs



F-35B SRVL Warton Shipborne Rolling Vertical Landing Sim https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02krA7oRK9Y

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F-35BvHUDviewSRVLbedfordArraySRVV.gif
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Unread post24 Oct 2018, 16:36

Salute!

Great HUD video.

I was surprised that there was not a steering symbol and that the pilot had to basically use the pitch references that HUD's have displayed for a hundred years along with the FPM. It's what we did in the Sluf, Jag and other early jets with a HUD and good inertial.

I now see why USMC plans on the vertical landing when deck space is considered. The doggone jet is easier to land vertically than the Harrier and prolly uses lots less gas. It zips in, stops, slides to the side and plops down. I bet it does the drill in half the time than a Harrier.

OTOH, the rolling landing would seem appropriate on a short runway/austere environment when bringing back ord or empty tanks or....

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Unread post07 Dec 2018, 20:51

Several previous stories (perhaps from other news outlets AFAIK) have stated the BEDFORD ARRAY is NOT installed on QE - it will be installed later. The array will be installed aboard HMS Prince of Wales during construction however. Anyhoo…
ANALYSIS: UK on a roll after F-35B carrier trials
07 Dec 2018 Richard Scott

"...Fifteen SRVL recoveries were performed using integrated test force (ITF) development aircraft BF-04 and BF-05 during the two periods of development testing (DT-1/DT-2) during the ship's recent first-of-class flight trials. Pilots and test engineers from the ITF embarked for the activity confirm that initial testing validated simulations and has given confidence in the innovative manoeuvre….

...Other benefits of the SRVL manoeuvre include reduced deck wear, extended engine life and reduced fuel burn.

When executing an SRVL recovery, a pilot descends the aircraft to a 200ft plateau to line up and decelerate, before flying short finals along a 7˚ glideslope at a speed of approximately 60kt (110km/h). Assuming 25kt wind over the deck, this equates to a 35kt overtake speed. The pilot can fly a manual approach or engage "Delta Flight Path" mode to automatically fly the glideslope with minimum intervention....

...A ship-referenced velocity vector is incorporated in the pilot's helmet-mounted display, to provide a flightpath marker corrected for ship speed. HMS Queen Elizabeth is also equipped with an SRVL-specific visual landing aid, in the form of a mini fixed array of lights in the flightdeck tramlines, which provides a stabilised glideslope indication.

The SRVL manoeuvre also requires close co-operation with the ship's landing signal officer (LSO) in the flying control tower, or "FLYCO". The LSO monitors the aircraft's approach to the deck to check that glideslope, airspeed, attitude and line-up remain within parameters....

..."In my view, this is the way to land that airplane on this carrier, because it gives you so much capability," he [BAE Systems F-35 STOVL test pilot 'Wizzer' Wilson] says. "At this point, if you want me to go and land an F-35B on Queen Elizabeth, I’m going to do an SRVL." [deck spotter supreme huh]

RN Cdr Nathan Gray, another of the ITF test pilots involved in DT-1/DT-2, observes that flight testing has proved the SRVL to be a benign manoeuvre, and suitable for fleet pilots. "It represents our biggest win from this test from an experimental point of view," he says. "SRVL will give us somewhere between 2,000lb and 3,000lb [880-1,320kg] of extra bring-back, which is phenomenal for a STOVL aircraft."

The 15 SRVL recoveries flown during DT-1/DT-2 were designed to demonstrate initial manoeuvre capability and gather evidence to validate prior simulations. "Throughout that initial demonstration, we've shown very good robustness to all the clearances, all the loads, all the handling qualities," says Martin Peters, BAE's F-35 flight-test manager and STOVL test lead. "It’s all been very good, and it looks like we've got a platform that is absolutely viable. What we will look to do next year [in DT-3] is expand that envelope."

Maximum bring-back still has to be established. Real-world data captured during DT-1/DT-2 will be fed back into laboratory models and the Warton simulator. "We’ll refine the models based on the real-world use cases [and] start to extrapolate from there," Peters says.

While the UK is currently the only F-35B operator planning to utilise the SRVL recovery, the US Marine Corps has also shown interest in the manoeuvre."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ls-454087/
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Unread post08 Dec 2018, 00:14

Turns out the BEDFORD ARRAY is fitted on QE - makes sense - otherwise 'testing' SRVL relies on a 'deck spotter test pilot'.
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Unread post29 Dec 2018, 11:16

On p.102 of 'MUDDLE' thread 'SWP' quoted from a UK Parliament review about 'press reported' problems refuted by inquiry:

viewtopic.php?f=58&t=15969&p=383701&hilit=parliament+cmdfence#p383701 DEC 2017

Two pages about F-35B 'WEIGHT' are attached excerpts from this report with a quote also below.
Unclear for take-off? F-35 Procurement
12 Dec 2017 UK Parliament Inquiry

"...Weight
...114. Overall, Air Commodore Taylor was enthusiastic about the “simply exceptional” performance of the F-35:
"We are bringing back and vertically landing on to the carrier full stores loadout, with enough fuel to land or, if you cannot land the first time, to go round and have another go and still land vertically with the aeroplane."


Source: https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/c ... 26/326.pdf (0.33Mb)
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WEIGHT UK F-35B 2017 Unclear for take-off 326 pp2.pdf
(102.29 KiB) Downloaded 311 times
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Unread post29 Dec 2018, 13:17

spazsinbad wrote:Turns out the BEDFORD ARRAY is fitted on QE - makes sense - otherwise 'testing' SRVL relies on a 'deck spotter test pilot'.


Actually, the BA adds redundancy to what is provided visually with the GS and SRVV references in the vHUD. SRVL easily performed without the BA, or with the BA if the vHUD fails.
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Unread post29 Dec 2018, 15:13

Difficult to imagine any of it just viewing a few videos with written material, my impression is that the Bedford Array is needed when conditions are difficult because the landing spot will move as the ship moves, thus providing a safe 'over the ramp' height with sufficient stopping distance from landing spot and a safe descent rate so that nothing breaks. I'll guess when it all gets too much in extreme conditions then either the LSO or the system itself tells the F-35B pilot to wave off. Of course there are conditions which prevent an SRVL so then a VL is performed by dumping weight fuel/ordnance etc.

http://www.zinio.com/reader.jsp?issue=3 ... v=sub&p=28 & PADDLES URL no longer valid & https://vtol.org/store/product/developm ... t-9024.cfm & http://arc.aiaa.org/doi/abs/10.2514/6.2013-4267
"...The system works using a series of evenly spaced lights that run the length of the flight deck centreline. Only one light flashes at any given time, the specific light changing in sync with the pitching of the ship. This allows the pilot to focus on one point on the deck regardless of the relative movement of the ship for a relatively simple approach and recovery. As part of this work Wilson himself has developed new helmet-mounted symbology, known as the Ship Reference Velocity Vector (SRVV), to help the pilot better judge his approach to the ship...." http://www.janes.com/article/52509/f-35 ... operations
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BedfordArraySRVLpitchHeaveMovingLandingSpot16col.gif
SRVLvHUDBedfordArraySRVVview32col.gif
BedfordArrayMovingAimPoint16col.gif
MovingAimPointBedfordArray16col.gif
SRVLbedfordArrayExternalView.jpg
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