Patuxent River Ski Jump Video (No F-35Bs on it)

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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lamoey

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Unread post23 Jun 2015, 17:55

That first run had a distinct tail drop when the main gear left the jumps edge, before the flight control system reacted by moving the nozzle more vertical for added lift. Hope the pilot did not soil himself 8)

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/164780/f_35b-makes-first-ski-jump-test-%E2%80%93-four-months-late.html
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Unread post23 Jun 2015, 21:01

'Gums' this is my full explanation shorthand: "...keep the wheels on the ramp before going ballistic off it - with the aid of significant wing lift now allowed (not on the ski jump though) and the engine lift...". Yes the aircraft has an upward vector brought on by the ski jump but the F-35B has different engine and lift vectors compared to the Harrier family. There are a few Harrier ski jump explanations in this forum, written by experienced Harrier Pilots but of the many different threads now scattered here there and perhaps everywhere. :mrgreen: I can dig them out but if you require a Hairier Pilote to explain then I'll wait for same.

As you suggest 'Gums' the Bee is accelerating in this 'inbetween mode' and can keep that going up until the Mode 4 STOVL limit (with all the doors open) at 250 knots or less below 10,000 feet. The flight computer controls it all and does what the pilot requires within the limits set by the same flight computer. The are other combinations with different sets of doors open (but unusual). The usual STOVL Mode 4 has all the doors open and the aircraft then can fly backwards at thirty knots (a limit - right on the edge of control) hover and fly at any speed up to 250 knots below 10,000 feet.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post23 Jun 2015, 21:10

:mrgreen: 'sferrin' & 'lamoey' point to the (or one of them) "whiney little man" @defairspack. Said same missed the chance to complain about FOUR FRICKIN' YEARS LATE not just 'four months' - so I'll not miss that chance. :devil:
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post23 Jun 2015, 21:15

'lamoey' said above: "...distinct tail drop when the main gear left the jumps edge, before the flight control system reacted by moving the nozzle more vertical for added lift...". I guess it is all in the eye of the beholder. I see the 3BSN moving throughout the ski jump travel (watch the slow motion video over on beforehand page). So not only does the tail drop slightly but instead the nose rises slightly - a good thing and probably seen in the simulator. Remember this stuff has been tested ad nauseum on a 'moving' simulator at BAE Wharton, UK and not just at any sim at PaxRiver. These people know their stuff.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post23 Jun 2015, 23:05

Joint US and UK test team have begun testing the Short Takeoff capability for the Lightning II.
23 Jun 2015 UK MoD

"The F35B Lightning II has successfully completed another major milestone as the fifth generation stealth fighter was launched into the skies from a ski-jump, Friday 19 June.... [Oopps should be in 'milestone thread']

The land-based test — conducted by the F35 Lightning II Pax River Integrated Test Force — took place at Naval Air Station in Patuxent River, Maryland, US.

The joint U.S.-U.K. test team will continue phase I of ski jump testing this summer in anticipation of eventual U.K. aircraft carrier operations.

Peter Wilson is the BAE Systems test pilot and ski jump project lead for a highly diverse cadre of technicians, engineers, administrative support staff and test pilots based at the Pax River ITF and in the UK. ['Wizzer' Wilson quotes about F-35B ski jumping are scattered throughout this forum]

He said:
“Friday’s F35B ski jump was a great success for the joint ski jump team. I’m exceptionally proud of this team. Their years of planning, collaboration and training have culminated in a fantastic achievement that advances the future capabilities of the aircraft and its integration into UK operations.”


For more than 30 years, the U.K. has used the ski jump approach to carrier operations as an alternative to the catapults and arresting gear used aboard U.S. aircraft carriers.

The shorter UK carriers feature an upward-sloped ramp at the bow of the ship. Curved at its leading edge, a ski-jump ramp simultaneously launches aircraft upward and forward, [ballistic? with added OOMPH?] allowing aircraft to take off with more weight and less end-speed than required for an unassisted horizontal launch aboard U.S. aircraft carriers.

Peter added:
“As expected, aircraft BF-04 performed well and I can’t wait until we’re conducting F35 ski jumps from the deck of the Queen Elizabeth carrier. Until then, the de-risking that we’re able to achieve now during phase I of our ski jump testing will equip us with valuable data we’ll use to fuel our phase II efforts.”


The F35B’s design allows it to automatically position the control surfaces and nozzles for takeoff; a unique capability compared with previous STOVL aircraft. Such automation frees up pilot capacity and provides an added safety enhancement...."

Source: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/f-35 ... ns-testing
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post23 Jun 2015, 23:16

I think this video has been posted before but worth a second look - shame that the 'engineer' is really a PILOT. :doh:
How the F35B Lightning II works
Published on May 27, 2015 defenceheadquarters

"Royal Navy engineer [PILOT], Ian Tidball takes you on a tour of F35B Lightning II.

Discover how its capabilities will place the UK at the forefront of fighter technology, giving the RAF a true multi-role all weather, day and night capability. It will be able to operate from well-established land bases, deployed locations or the Royal Navy's Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers."

RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post23 Jun 2015, 23:26

F-35B Leaps off Ski Jump for the First Time
23 Jun 2015 Brendan McGarry

"...“This test was a success for the joint ski jump team,” Peter Wilson, the BAE Systems test pilot and Briton who flew the June 19 mission, said in a press release. “The aircraft performed well and I can’t wait until we’re conducting F-35 ski jumps from the deck of the Queen Elizabeth carrier.”...

...note the F-35B has its nozzle directed downward to maximize rate of ascent. In the release, Gordon Stewart, flying qualities engineer representing the UK Ministry of Defence, touted the aircraft’s higher degree of automation during takeoffs and landings.

“For ski jump launches, the aircraft recognizes when it is on the ramp and responds by positioning the control surfaces and nozzles automatically for takeoff and climb,” he said. “We’ll be using these results — along with those from future testing — to help us prepare for the first shipboard ski jump launch from HMS Queen Elizabeth.”

Unfortunately, that may still be a long way off. The ramp test itself was delayed by several months [SHOCKA!] and F-35 trials aboard the Queen Elizabeth may not happen until around 2018 or later."

Source: http://defensetech.org/2015/06/23/f-35b ... irst-time/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post23 Jun 2015, 23:32

F-35B STOVL (Short Take Off Vertical Landing) variant of the Joint Strike Fighter performs first launch from ski-jump in the hands of a British pilot.
23 Jun 2015 David Cenciotti

"On Jun. 19, BAE Systems Test Pilot Pete ‘Wizzer’ Wilson launched the Lockheed Martin F-35B from a land-based ski-jump for the very first time, at Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Maryland.

The trials aim at validating the troubled fifth generation multi-role aircraft’s ability to take off safely and effectively from a ski-jump ramp similar [SAME AS BOYO] to that which will be used on the UK’s new Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier.

Ski-jump ramps on aircraft carrier help the launching plane take off with an upward flight path. Italy’s Cavour [is that Italian for CLOWN? see here for context: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=25623&p=293498&hilit=CLOWNS#p293498 ] aircraft carrier, destined to receive the Italian Navy F-35Bs that will replace the AV-8B+ Harrier II is also equipped with a ski-jump."

Source: http://theaviationist.com/2015/06/23/f- ... mp-launch/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post24 Jun 2015, 00:46

Question.
Wont a ski-jump be more beneficial for a fully loaded (internal and external weapons) F-35B take off? If so, would these mean that USMC F-35Bs operating off from current USN LHDs can only go out with full fuel, internal weapons, and gun pod?
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Unread post24 Jun 2015, 01:23

That is not known yet as the testing from the Wasp had them taking off in multiple conditions, run-up distance, etc.

There are a couple of things that you could do from an LHD to takeoff with a better MTOW than the KPP:
1. Use more of the 840+ft deck (590ft is what has been demonstrated)
2. Use a little AB to get moving before the 3BN rotates towards the deck
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Unread post24 Jun 2015, 01:25

'charlielima223' asked:
"Question. Wont a ski-jump be more beneficial for a fully loaded (internal and external weapons) F-35B take off? If so, would these mean that USMC F-35Bs operating off from current USN LHDs can only go out with full fuel, internal weapons, and gun pod?"

This is a 'how long is a piece of string' question. Specifically with very limited information the same question or similar has been asked on this forum in various ways. One way to answer is that the F-35B conforms to required KPPs - one of which is the USMC/RN/RAF/CVF requirement to carry out a STO blah blah blah on an LHA - now at 600 feet (formerly 550) whilst the CVF was 450 feet - with ski jump. And AFAIK there was some WOD and temperature/pressures set - ordinary.

With this limited amount of information one may extrapolate what 'taking off from 800 feet with ski jump' with a FULL internal/external weapon/fuel loadout (not specified in pounds nor conditions but probably standard) and then do some mathematics to account for the LHA deck length (which is what in each case?). Whatever the answer - the answer remains: IF the required KPPs for STO are able to be made then flying armed services using the F-35B are happy.

Because the RN/RAF F-35B use on CVF envisages a VERY HOT LOW PRESSURE DAY WITH NIL WIND in the east of Suez then they envisage an SRVL for bringback weight. Apparently the USMC are happy with that VLBB KPP also. Go figure - what is imagined about how good or bad one requirement is over the others is that IF the KPP is met then the F-35B is good to go.

I see 'SWP' has answered whilst I was typing.... To Answer 'SWP':

The F-35B takes about fifteen seconds to convert to STOVL mode four according to what I recall reading. The F-35B cannot use afterburner in STOVL mode so how can an A/B burst benefit a STO except to clear out anything behind it?
How it Works: F-35B Hover
Feature Article // July 01, 2014

"...For the pilot, converting from conventional flight to STOVL mode is no more complicated than pushing the STOVL conversion button. This is the same button that pilots flying an F-35A or F-35C aircraft would push to lower the tail hook.

After the button is pressed, the transformation to STOVL mode begins, which includes the opening of all STOVL doors and the propulsion system preparing to engage the clutch. Once all doors are open, the clutch engages when sets of carbon plates press together to spin the LiftFan® up from a complete stop to engine speed. Once the speeds between the LiftFan® and engine are matched, a mechanical lock is engaged to remove the torque load from the clutch and permit operation to full lift fan power. After the lock engages, the propulsion system completes conversion to STOVL mode and responds to aircraft commands. The entire sequence takes approximately fifteen seconds."

Source: https://www.f35.com/news/detail/how-doe ... -35b-hover
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post24 Jun 2015, 02:07

I think you misunderstood (from me not being clear enough) what I was referring too when I talked about the rotation of the 3BN.

Assuming that the F-35B started will all the doors open (this takes the longest time to do of the 15 seconds), used his AB for just a couple of seconds, then rotates the 3BN for a normal STO takeoff.

Taking a look at this BF-1 STO, you get an idea of what I mean.

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Unread post24 Jun 2015, 02:47

I did not hear an A/B howl. AFAIK/have read the F-35B cannot use A/B when the aircraft is in STOVL mode. Do you see the A/B in action in that video? All we see is a short take off with the 3BSN not in view until some time down take off roll. So we can imagine - if we wish - that this was going to be a FAST STO take off. I believe these were done at the beginning - including fast rolling landings in STOVL mode before the first VL. This is all test stuff.

Time and again I see quotes that the aircraft cannot go into afterburner when in STOVL mode. I can post a list of such quotes fairly easily if required.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post24 Jun 2015, 04:02

I don't think he meant that video was an example of it performing this, just saying that you could launch the F-35B similar to the video (starting off with the nozzle completely rearward, before rotating the nozzle down and taking off).

While the nozzle is straight, the lift-fan clutch is disengaged, and roll-post valves are shut, there should be nothing mechanically preventing it from engaging the afterburner - software-wise I wouldn't be surprised if there's code to prevent it from happening (to prevent the pilot from breaching the ~250kt barrier while the doors are still open / in the process of closing), but again, mechanically it should be fine.
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Unread post24 Jun 2015, 05:06

'Dragon029' 'SWP' has used 'use the AB' a few time now so there is that. Whatever you may think is possible with the STOVL doors open in Mode Four - it is clear that the A/B cannot be used. I doubt there are other configurations with another mode - not all doors closed - that allows the A/B to be used. IF this was a useful trait - AND allowed - then Shirley it would be tested? And yes a Brit Engineer thought to close the roll post doors early on in development to allow more thrust to other parts during the initial STO roll, before the roll effects required once on/off the ski jump.

For example novel doors open/closed wheels up conditions in flight have been tested in case of some kind of door failure or combat damage. We get away from the point perhaps - which is this. The F-35B at MTOW can take off from a ski jump on CVF under reasonable conditions - make of that what you will.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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