6 RAAF Supers to Growlers (Fewer F-35s?)

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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neptune

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Unread post05 Feb 2013, 16:32

geogen wrote:....
.... In relative terms, it's a natural policy to maintain a modern, effective, Reliable, flexible capability and deterrence as part of Australia's modern historical position. .....


One thing not to overlook is the mutually beneficial exposure to the S.E. Asian international trade routes (ITR) by the new ISR capable a/c and the tactics and analysis that would be shared by allied programs. Having that platform (Growler) and having access to the military shipping that travels in the ITR can provide much needed ISR data for updating the analyst databases; "Tip of the Spear", so to speak. Having to deploy strategic assets (aka CVNs) to provide the range for those same ISR assets would be a bit overt, rather than one that is flying a common home surveillance flight of those same ITRs. Those same resources, tactics, and analysis are the development basis for the the EA/EW capabilites in the eventual transition to the ISR F-35s. Regardless of how many F-35s the Aussies buy, these new Growlers can work in tandem with them to provide additional follow-on capabilities in both weapons and ISR systems. :wink:
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popcorn

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Unread post05 Feb 2013, 23:11

neptune wrote:
vilters wrote:Air defence against what or who??
The Hobbits? :-)


The Hobbits are going to attack?, then you must call on your wizards for your defense! :lol:


This guy would be top of my list to see action ..


http://www.businessinsider.com/bct-dril ... ate-2013-2 :D
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Unread post06 Feb 2013, 01:18

popcorn wrote:
kamenriderblade wrote:Who said anything about sending in only single digit at a time.

I'm talking about 100+ planes at once just to down 1-4 F-22's or F-35's

Do what China does best, Zerg rush.


http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=9KpjgHYj ... KpjgHYjcA4

Have you seen this series of videos? I think they capture what the unclassified, prevailing wisdom is re how the F-22s and F-35s may fare in future combat scenarios. I don't propose that these are to be taken as gospel or,written in stone but they do seem to reflect what is available in the public domain.

Note that these videos,were created years ago and assume future scenarios. Also allow for some,creative license eg. there are no,B-1R missile,mules but their roles could,easily be filled by legacy jets each loaded,with a dozen or more,AMRAAM-Ds which could be cued to targets by F-22s or F-35s. As an aside, Raptors have been put to the fire over the years in Red Flag on how to,fight and defeat swarming tactics by numerically superior adversaries. The results have been lopsided in it's favor.

At the very least, good entertainment value.


I've seen those videos, they make for some entertaining shows.

But I can't see China going in with such few numbers given what they know of US air power / tech.
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Unread post06 Feb 2013, 03:54

kamenriderblade wrote:
popcorn wrote:
kamenriderblade wrote:Who said anything about sending in only single digit at a time.

I'm talking about 100+ planes at once just to down 1-4 F-22's or F-35's

Do what China does best, Zerg rush.


http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=9KpjgHYj ... KpjgHYjcA4

Have you seen this series of videos? I think they capture what the unclassified, prevailing wisdom is re how the F-22s and F-35s may fare in future combat scenarios. I don't propose that these are to be taken as gospel or,written in stone but they do seem to reflect what is available in the public domain.

Note that these videos,were created years ago and assume future scenarios. Also allow for some,creative license eg. there are no,B-1R missile,mules but their roles could,easily be filled by legacy jets each loaded,with a dozen or more,AMRAAM-Ds which could be cued to targets by F-22s or F-35s. As an aside, Raptors have been put to the fire over the years in Red Flag on how to,fight and defeat swarming tactics by numerically superior adversaries. The results have been lopsided in it's favor.

At the very least, good entertainment value.


I've seen those videos, they make for some entertaining shows.

But I can't see China going in with such few numbers given what they know of US air power / tech.


I think the point is that the US has developed tactics vs. swarm attacks and would bring the appropriate level of assets commensurate to any threat.
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Unread post06 Feb 2013, 04:29

kamenriderblade wrote:
popcorn wrote:
kamenriderblade wrote:Who said anything about sending in only single digit at a time.

I'm talking about 100+ planes at once just to down 1-4 F-22's or F-35's

Do what China does best, Zerg rush.


http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=9KpjgHYj ... KpjgHYjcA4

Have you seen this series of videos? I think they capture what the unclassified, prevailing wisdom is re how the F-22s and F-35s may fare in future combat scenarios. I don't propose that these are to be taken as gospel or,written in stone but they do seem to reflect what is available in the public domain.

Note that these videos,were created years ago and assume future scenarios. Also allow for some,creative license eg. there are no,B-1R missile,mules but their roles could,easily be filled by legacy jets each loaded,with a dozen or more,AMRAAM-Ds which could be cued to targets by F-22s or F-35s. As an aside, Raptors have been put to the fire over the years in Red Flag on how to,fight and defeat swarming tactics by numerically superior adversaries. The results have been lopsided in it's favor.

At the very least, good entertainment value.


I've seen those videos, they make for some entertaining shows.

But I can't see China going in with such few numbers given what they know of US air power / tech.


Does China have hundreds of aircraft to just throw away trying to mob 5th generation platforms? I don't see where they really do. Sure, they have some older platforms that they could afford to lose in numbers but no one has SU-27's or better in huge numbers to just casually toss them away.

More than that there are some real practical problems in trying to mob someone that everyone seems to overlook.
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Unread post06 Feb 2013, 06:57

They have those numbers in total.

And I do predict potential and intentional friendly fire in my assessment of their tactic that has a high probability of scoring a kill at a huge cost to their ranks.
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Unread post06 Feb 2013, 08:10

kamenriderblade wrote:They have those numbers in total.

And I do predict potential and intentional friendly fire in my assessment of their tactic that has a high probability of scoring a kill at a huge cost to their ranks.

Intentional or unintentional??

Also, the thing about the F-22 is its FAST, and can fly at Mach 1.8 (Supercruise) longer than any other jet fighter in service. So what would happen is the F-22 would evade the 100s of hostiles, keeping them BVR, and wait for them to run out of gas.

Any idea how long a MiG-21 can stay supersonic? Apparently less than 10 minutes before becoming critically low on gas.
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Unread post06 Feb 2013, 08:19

Even then the F-22 can't go Supersonic forever.

I'm sure the Chinese has their own version of a AMRAAM that is comparable to the AIM 120D in terms of range.

With enough planes, the will power to intentionally accept friendly fire, the will power to fire lots of missiles and potentially waste lots of ammo.

There is a real threat there, the question is the Chinese Military leaders willing to incur massive losses to do minimum damage to the US.
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Unread post06 Feb 2013, 09:23

Seems like a replay of Northern Edge 2006 where the F-22 force, by itself and in combination with F-15Cs, demolished a numerically superior Red force. With the passage of time, expect advances in tactics and training and technology (e.g. AIM-120D, BACN, etc.) to result in an even more effective and capable force.
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Unread post07 Feb 2013, 03:05

There is also that "Aegis is my wing-man" thing. Ships tend to have a lot missiles than fighters do.
Einstein got it backward: one cannot prevent a war without preparing for it.

Uncertainty: Learn it, love it, live it.
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Unread post08 Feb 2013, 06:12

Conan wrote:
hobo wrote:
.But Peter Goon, a former RAAF engineer now with the independent think tank Air Power Australia, said Australia was "already outmatched in the region" on air combat. "If you send out Super Hornets against the Sukhoi Su-35s, few if any of them will come back," he said.


There are Su-35s in the region? I am thinking you would have to take a pretty expansive view of what constitutes the region...


Of course. Russia is in our region dontcha know?

So Peter (despite the underwear he wears on his head and his predeliction for having two pencils up his nose) Goon is completely correct.

If we ever sent our 24x Super Hornets against the only SU-35's in the entire world we WOULD have few come home...


I'm sorry Conan, but I just don't agree with that. Yea I have read all thaT the in the know people on these boards say about the capabilities of the SU35's. But there is simply more to it then that. The Aussies are no doubt some of the best fighter pilots in the world. They will have at their disposal other assets to aid them and even though the enemy may also have other types of support, again they will not match the Aussies in their abilitys and I don't care if it is even the Russians flying them. And for that matter, by and large, the Russians are simply no match for the Aussie pilots and the assets they will bring to the table.

The US Navy will be flying these same Shornets for at least the next 25-30 years as well and the only air force in the entire world I see that could handle the USN is the USAF!! And that would be a blood bath on both sides!! *I guess all I am saying is what looks good on paper don't really mean a whole lot. I honestly believe the Aussies would bring the vast majority of their Supers home and the SU35 community would be short practically every plane they sent up except the ones that figured out once agin that their Russian super plane on paper was way outgunned and got their butts out of there while they still could.

JMHO,
Beazz
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Unread post09 Feb 2013, 01:27

count_to_10 wrote:There is also that "Aegis is my wing-man" thing. Ships tend to have a lot missiles than fighters do.


Unless they can prove (in combat) that the F-35 can provide tracking and guidance to the Aegis system, shooting missles near an allied fighter may be a bit "dicey"(BoB).
:cry:
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Unread post09 Feb 2013, 01:48

neptune wrote:
count_to_10 wrote:There is also that "Aegis is my wing-man" thing. Ships tend to have a lot missiles than fighters do.


Unless they can prove (in combat) that the F-35 can provide tracking and guidance to the Aegis system, shooting missles near an allied fighter may be a bit "dicey"(BoB).
:cry:


The theoretical ability of the F-35 to que Aegis is redundant to existent aircraft.
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Unread post09 Feb 2013, 02:18

neptune wrote:
count_to_10 wrote:There is also that "Aegis is my wing-man" thing. Ships tend to have a lot missiles than fighters do.


Unless they can prove (in combat) that the F-35 can provide tracking and guidance to the Aegis system, shooting missles near an allied fighter may be a bit "dicey(BoB).
:cry:

Not really. F-22s,have been playing with AEGIS for years now and the F-35 will leverage this knowledge in addition to bringing it's superior sensors suite providing 360-degree SA, better than any legacy jet's.

The primary AAW missile will be SM-6 due to it's launch-on-remote capability allowing launch on distant targets using third-party cueing. It's seeker is based on,AMRAAM tech and when it goes active, it would likely perform an IFF interrogation just like AMRAAM prior to engageme
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Unread post09 Feb 2013, 03:45

Beazz wrote:
I'm sorry Conan, but I just don't agree with that. Yea I have read all thaT the in the know people on these boards say about the capabilities of the SU35's. But there is simply more to it then that. The Aussies are no doubt some of the best fighter pilots in the world. They will have at their disposal other assets to aid them and even though the enemy may also have other types of support, again they will not match the Aussies in their abilitys and I don't care if it is even the Russians flying them. And for that matter, by and large, the Russians are simply no match for the Aussie pilots and the assets they will bring to the table.

The US Navy will be flying these same Shornets for at least the next 25-30 years as well and the only air force in the entire world I see that could handle the USN is the USAF!! And that would be a blood bath on both sides!! *I guess all I am saying is what looks good on paper don't really mean a whole lot. I honestly believe the Aussies would bring the vast majority of their Supers home and the SU35 community would be short practically every plane they sent up except the ones that figured out once agin that their Russian super plane on paper was way outgunned and got their butts out of there while they still could.

JMHO,
Beazz


I think you missed the sarcasm in the post... People like the Eric Palmer / APA brigade (led by the nose by Goon aka "Horde") like to state that the F-35 and Super Hornet aircraft are out-classed when compared against the "reference threat" which they've unilaterally declared to be the SU-35.

So my point was simple. As Russia is the ONLY SU-35 user at present (and even it only has developmental aircraft) and if RAAF Super Hornets and JSF's have to go up against SU-35's (by virtue of the Russian airforce being the ONLY user) completely by itself as is considered reasonably by ELP and the APA brigade (because you know, America is mired in Iraq or something and therefore has no ability to help) than RAAF's tiny little force, WILL come off second best.

When you look at it from their crazy point of view, it makes perfect sense. Of course the REAL fact is that it's RAAF's limited ability to fight all alone (based on it's small size) that makes the difference, not the individual quality or otherwise of it's aircraft, is completely irrelevant, to them...
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