India to join JSF effort?

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VprWzl

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Unread post27 Jan 2011, 17:24

Possible Indian buy-in?

DefenseNews.com
January 26, 2011

U.S. May Allow India To Join JSF Effort

By Dave Majumdar

The United States is open to Indian participation in the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program, and eventual purchase of its fifth generation F-35 Lightning II stealth fighter, Pentagon acquisitions Chief Ashton Carter said Jan. 26.

"There is nothing on our side, no principle which bars that on our side, Indian participation in the Joint Strike Fighter. Right now, they're focused on these aircraft which are top-of-the-line fourth-gen fighters," Carter said.

However, the decision to pursue the F-35 is India's alone.

In a follow-up email, Pentagon spokeswoman Cheryl Irwin said, "If, at some point down the road, India were interested in purchasing JSF from us, then we would engage the Indians in an open, transparent manner at that time. But this would obviously be something that the Indian government would have to decide it wanted or needed."

Carter was speaking at the release of a report by the Carnegie Endowment's Ashley Tellis on India's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program. The Indian contract calls for the purchase of 126 fighters and is valued at more than $10 billion, Carter said. Competitors include the Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper, Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale, Saab JAS-39 Gripen and the Mikoyan MiG-35.

Carter touted the American-built F-16 and F/A-18 as being the most technologically advanced aircraft in the competition.

"I think that, without saying anything disparaging about the other entrants, both F/A-18 and the F-16 offers include the best technology," he said.

Tellis echoed Carter's comments, saying the two U.S. competitors offered the best capability for the lowest price. Of particular interest to India are the American fighters' Active Electronically Scanned Array radars (AESA), he said. The European and Russian aircraft do not currently have operational AESA radars available. The U.S. military, meanwhile, is currently operating its second generation of AESA radars.

The most important factors in any Indian decision will likely be technology transfer and industrial participation, Carter said. Carter also stressed the importance of lifecycle costs because 70 percent of a weapon's total cost resides in not in the initial purchase price, but rather in sustainment. According to Tellis, both the F-16 and F/A-18 offer the lowest lifecycle costs out of the aircraft on offer.

Carter also stressed the importance of transparency.

"I'm committed to in our process, both with respect to India and in our own internal processes, an open and transparent process, and I think we can promise the Indian government that," he said.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=5548948&c=AME&s=AIR
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Unread post27 Jan 2011, 20:49

“‘dogfight!’ India’s Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft Decision” by Ashley J. Tellis - Carnegie Endowment for International Peace

http://carnegieendowment.org/files/dogfight.pdf (2Mb)

MUNNY referenced this PDF here:
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopi ... t-105.html
Last edited by spazsinbad on 28 Jan 2011, 02:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post27 Jan 2011, 22:42

It seems somewhat odd that the Gripen, the lightest airframe by a considerable margin, and and using only one of the same engine that powers the twin-engine SuperHornet, would have a higher life cycle cost than either the near-Eagle sized F-18E/F, or the F-16IN (roughly equivalent to the heavy and high-powered E/F model).

Does anyone know if users of the Gripen are finding it particularly expensive/problematic to maintain and operate?

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Unread post27 Jan 2011, 23:34

Ah, who knows! The F-16 and F-18 probably get a boost from higher numbers in service (so a bigger base market which drives down cost), but... that doesn't seem like it would bridge the gap that well.
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Unread post28 Jan 2011, 01:41

It would not seem prudent for the US to allow the sale of the F-35 to India, while they are developing the joint-venture development with Russia. " Air Chief Marshal Naik said the 30-tonne FGFA (Sukhoi/HAL Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft; PAK-FA/ T-50) will be a "swing-role fighter, with very advanced avionics, stealth to increase survivability, enhanced lethality, 360 degree situational awareness, smart weapons, data-links, high-end mission computers and the like." It would be a likely competitor to the F-35 in the international fighter sales market. The conflict of interest :devil: in the compromise of the design technologies would be intuitive :doh: .
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Unread post28 Jan 2011, 07:45

Maybe India could get sub-assembly work regardless of whether they want to buy?? Similar to Super Hornet contracts regardless of their MRCA selection? This could be helpful in keeping the chain functional and affordable as possible, especially if any current or expected production players pull out?
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Unread post28 Jan 2011, 09:26

Yes Geo, because they couldn't possibly be interested in the 'sub-par' F-35 could they? ;)
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Unread post28 Jan 2011, 10:38

neptune wrote:It would not seem prudent for the US to allow the sale of the F-35 to India, while they are developing the joint-venture development with Russia. " Air Chief Marshal Naik said the 30-tonne FGFA (Sukhoi/HAL Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft; PAK-FA/ T-50) will be a "swing-role fighter, with very advanced avionics, stealth to increase survivability, enhanced lethality, 360 degree situational awareness, smart weapons, data-links, high-end mission computers and the like." It would be a likely competitor to the F-35 in the international fighter sales market. The conflict of interest :devil: in the compromise of the design technologies would be intuitive :doh: .



I think not the US can put Safe Guard in place to protect it's Hardware. As it is with the current P-8I for example............
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Unread post29 Jan 2011, 03:41

Washington Opens for Indian Request for F-35 January 28, 2011

http://defense-update.com/wp/20110128_f ... +Update%29

"The United States may allow India to purchase its fifth generation F-35 Lightning II stealth fighter. According to Pentagon acquisitions Chief Ashton Carter, “there is nothing on our side, no principle which bars […] Indian participation in the Joint Strike Fighter. The decision to pursue the F-35 is India’s alone”. Offering the F-35 to India is not new – in 2007 Lockheed Martin briefed Indian officials on the F-35, but eventually the move was blocked by Washington.

Indeed, India has asked for the F-35. Lockheed Martin vice president Orville Prins confirmed today his company already received a request for information from the Indian Navy, concerning the naval variants of the F-35 aircraft (F-35B STOVL and F-35C carrier conventional take off variants), both capable of operating from current and future Indian aircraft carriers. “We are going to offer our aircraft to them.” Prins confirmed. The aircraft are required to operate off two indigenously built aircraft carriers currently being constructed in India and due to enter service toward the end of this decade. The Indian Navy currently operates 11 Sea Harriers and has bought a squadron of MiG-29Ks to operate from the ex Russian Navy carrier due for delivery to India by 2012.

The possible release of JSF technology to India implies a substantial shift in U.S. policy toward India, which could be related to Washington shift to toward New Delhi, becoming a closer strategic ally that is equally concerned over the military growth of China. So far such a move was restrained by an effort to maintain U.S.-Pakistani relations at equal terms with U.S.-Indian relations. The new shift in Washington may indicate that the Pentagon is concerned about the status of the F-35, the program’s delays and the integrity of the JSF alliance, especially vis-a-vis the rapid progress of competitive programs in China and Russia – the latter, being a joint program with India. If the U.S. would wait for the PAK-FA program to mature, the U.S. could lose an opportunity to tap the Indian market for its 5th generation fighters. India is said to consider buying 250 T-50 5th generation fighters to be jointly developed with Sukhoi in Russia.

Another indicator of the policy shift is the rumor over a possible participation of a U.S. Air Force Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor stealth fighter at Aero-India. It is yet unclear if the aircraft will land at Bangalore or fly in for short flight display. Until now the participation of Raptors in international shows was limited to the U.K., and Japan.

Carter also referred to India’s Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition, where two U.S. fighters – Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper and Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet are competing against European and Russian rivals Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale, Saab JAS-39 Gripen and the Mikoyan MiG-35 for an order of 126 aircraft. According to Carter, the U.S.-built fighters are the most technologically advanced aircraft in the competition.

One of the key factors stressed by the Americans is the operational AESA radars integrated in their aircraft. While the Russian and European fighters are offered with AESA radars that have not been integrated yet on the aircraft, both F-16 and A/F-18E/F are operationally flying with second generation AESA radars. Highlighting affordability, Carter stressed the importance of lifecycle costs, attributed to 70 percent of a platform’s life cycle cost. The U.S. officials argue that both the F-16 and F/A-18 offer the lower lifecycle costs than the competition.

New Delhi was never critical over the level of technology represented with the U.S. fighters, but was reluctant to be lured into deals that could not be supported by technology transfer. In this field, the Americans are way behind, bound by complex regulation. The European competitors, primarily Sweden were eager to offer everything they could to pave the way for their fighters to win the Indian hearts and minds. In contrast, the U.S., limited by complex technology transfer regulation could not offer technology transfer and, when it comes to the moment of truth, may not be able to offer everything the Indians want to get."
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Unread post29 Jan 2011, 06:07

The new shift in Washington may indicate that the Pentagon is concerned about the status of the F-35


Um, hello??? They should have made this their press release subject line, imho, lol!! Let's get with the program already guys!

Anyway, it's truly nice to hear this article at least mention the pertinent competition... Respects to that - no matter how slow to the show. 8)

Even if India can't afford both 5th gen platforms and still wishes to support the F-35's affordable production chain though, I would support their non-customer participation in the production chain.

I'm an original critic of the F-35 program (from 2001 in fact), ok, but since it's apparently the only thing going (no matter how degrading to USAF's posture and US's future national defense) I would support anything to reinforce the the production and affordability side of the politically chosen recap decision.
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Unread post29 Jan 2011, 08:58

geogen wrote:


I'm an original critic of the F-35 program (from 2001 in fact), ok, but since it's apparently the only thing going (no matter how degrading to USAF's posture and US's future national defense)


Coming from someone who's constantly advocating new build F-16's for the USAF i'd say thats a remarkably misguided claim to say the very least!

Personally I just can't imagine how degraded the USAF would be in 10 years time with a bunch of souped up F-16's rolling off the production line whilst its competitors start to operate their 5th gen fighters.
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Unread post29 Jan 2011, 11:18

I dont see India joining the JSF Program in the sense of producing F-35's in country. More like just purchasing a number for the Indian Navy with a small Indian content..........Now 15-20 years down the road maybe.
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Unread post29 Jan 2011, 18:15

By the time they put the MMRCA winner into service it will be having issues. If they buy the F-35 they get ahead of the curve.
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Unread post29 Jan 2011, 19:47

Based on my observations, India might already be heavily involved in the JSF program. Lets face it, as much as Americans love technology, they're still ridiculously afraid of MATH and SCIENCE (because of our mediocre public education systems?). So who does this leave the engineering to? Indians! And boy, does the US love to outsource!
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Unread post29 Jan 2011, 23:28

With own 5-Gen fighter project with Russia, India not keen on US jet Rajat Pandit, TNN, Jan 29, 2011

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 380551.cms

"NEW DELHI: India has no plans as of now to either join the US-led joint strike fighter (JSF) programme or buy the F-35 `Lightning-II' fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) when it finally becomes operational.

"We cannot have two types of FGFA. We have already launched preliminary work for our FGFA after inking the $295 million preliminary design contract (PDC) with Russia last month,'' said a top defence ministry official on Friday.

This comes in the wake of comments made by a top Pentagon official, undersecretary of defence for acquisition, technology and logistics Ashton Carter, in Washington that the US was open to Indian participation in its JSF project.

Interestingly, the comments came during a function where an aggressive sales pitch was made for India to select either the American F/A-18 `Super Hornet' ( Boeing) or F-16 `Falcon' ( Lockheed Martin) over their European rivals in the ongoing IAF's medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contest.

The other 4.5-generation fighters in the hotly-contested race to bag the $10.4 billion MMRCA project, under which 18 jets will be bought off-the-shelf and another 108 will be manufactured in India under transfer of technology, are Eurofighter Typhoon, Swedish Gripen (Saab), French Rafale (Dassault) and Russian MiG-35 (United Aircraft Corporation).

The IAF force matrix for the coming years revolves around the 270 Sukhoi-30MKIs contracted from Russia for around $12 billion, the 126 MMRCA and 120 indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, apart from upgraded MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s.

In the decades ahead, the advanced stealth FGFA to be developed with Russia will be the mainstay of India's combat fleet. "Our FGFA will be cheaper than the F-35. Moreover, the intellectual property rights of the FGFA will equally and jointly vest on both India and Russia, with full access to the source code and the like,'' said another senior official.

With a potent mix of super-manoeuvrability and supersonic cruising ability, the "swing-role'' FGFA will of course not come cheap. The cost of designing, infrastructure build-up, prototype development and flight testing has been pegged at around $11 billion, with India and Russia chipping in with $5.5 billion each.

Over and above this, each of the 250-300 FGFA India hopes to begin inducting from 2020 onwards will cost around $100 million each. In all, India will spend upwards of $35 billion over the next two decades in its biggest-ever defence project till now.

The Indian FGFA will primarily be based on the single-seater Sukhoi T-50, the prototype of which is already flying in Russia, but will include a twin-seater version and a more powerful engine with greater thrust.

"Its complete design will be frozen by the end of the 18-month PDC. Six to seven of its prototypes should be flying by 2017. After that, there will be 2,500 hours of flight-testing over 25 months before the series production begins in 2019,'' he said."
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