Possibility small STOVL carrier USN/USMC

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

Corsair1963

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3751
  • Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 04:14

Unread post07 Apr 2010, 07:28

The USAF will eventually have three F-35A Squadron dedicated for training fighter pilots at Eglin AFB.
Offline

Conan

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1013
  • Joined: 27 Apr 2007, 07:23

Unread post07 Apr 2010, 14:06

spazsinbad wrote:Hmmm, Conan, that is how JSF-B ops will start for the RAN FAA if it is ever going to happen. All the talk about 'no plan' is fine until there is a plan. There is even talk/imagining of other fixed wing assets being employed on the RAN LHDs (as poor man substitutes for JSF-B). My interest is in advancing the plan for JSF-Bs on RAN LHDs by educating myself about the issues involved to enable that 'plan'. :arrow: :idea: :P


No doubt.

In fact I'd go so far as to predict the FAA will commence flying F-35B's on the same date Air Combat Group's dual F-22A/F-111S "Uber Pig" fleet commences operations and China realising it is out-matched by our 100 fighter aircraft retires the entire PLAAF and adopts an isolationist policy, the re-engined DHC-4 Caribou completes it's upgrade program and the MRH-90, Tiger and Seahawk fleets are all retired in favour of upgraded UH-1H Huey II airframes...

All of this will happen at the same time as our Canberra class LHD's are actually re-manufactured with the appropriate air weapons magazines, fuel bunkerage and the C4I capability for fixed wing air operations is sufficient to actually enable F-35B operations.

All of this should happen just before the end of the Mayan calender in 2012 as well...

Sorry mate, you were about 5 days late with this post...

:D
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 19235
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post07 Apr 2010, 14:53

Conan, all you have posted has been said before (apart from your predictions) by gf0012-aust. No big deal. You must be RAAF I reckon.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Offline

VarkVet

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1448
  • Joined: 30 Oct 2006, 04:31

Unread post10 Apr 2010, 23:53

beepa wrote:Vark.. :cheers: ...btw did u catch the recent flyover....4 varks different sweep to escort the new supers into brisbane....the timer is tickin on the ole girl..


Nah ... didn't see anything on it. End of an era, out with the old in with the new.

With the money spent, maybe they should have created a "D" variant with sweep wings? "The Fastest Variant" :lol:
My eyes have seen the glory of the Lord and the esthetics of the Flightline
Offline

beepa

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 221
  • Joined: 05 Jan 2007, 22:36
  • Location: Aust.

Unread post11 Apr 2010, 04:48

VarkVet wrote:
beepa wrote:Vark.. :cheers: ...btw did u catch the recent flyover....4 varks different sweep to escort the new supers into brisbane....the timer is tickin on the ole girl..


Nah ... didn't see anything on it. End of an era, out with the old in with the new.

With the money spent, maybe they should have created a "D" variant with sweep wings? "The Fastest Variant" :lol:


try a quick search on youtube of supers arrival in bris....i was up mt cootha talkin to ex vark drivers...was so caught up in the varks and the antics of the hawk chase jet that i almost missed the supers...no big deal im sure the raaf will shove them in our faces in years to come...
now what would they have got with a permenant sweep..delta type...more fuel...less maint..long distance mud maker....damn aust should have got 10 or so bones....we got the tf30's lying around...
Offline

beepa

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 221
  • Joined: 05 Jan 2007, 22:36
  • Location: Aust.

Unread post11 Apr 2010, 05:10

spazsinbad wrote:Conan, all you have posted has been said before (apart from your predictions) by gf0012-aust. No big deal. You must be RAAF I reckon.


spaz.. no offence but u do remember when gf stated that noone on f16.net knew what they were talking about...apart from dwightlooi?(on sp)...leave the office workers to their own ego's....you have become a great source of information on this site but please dont cut and paste others cut and paste..personally im amazed what i can learn on certian topics by listening to the workforce...not the jerkforce.. :cheers:
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 19235
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post11 Apr 2010, 05:28

beepa, you have answered any reason I may offer as to why I'm here. I'm here for the beer and to learn about the JSF (B model specifically). In the process of answering someone elses question I may go find the info myself (because I have not asked myself that same question). Sometimes I fail though because 1) I have been out for a long time and 2) I don't know so I don't pretend to know.

However in offering 'cutandpaste' from elsewhere if that is what you are objecting to above (I'm not quite sure of the point you are making) I'm doing that because I have myself no personal knowledge of JSF to draw upon other that what is publicly available on the interbabble. Few people have personal knowledge I would assume and if they do then they are not talking - which is fair enough. Also I hope I'm meticulous to make it clear that the 'cut and pastes' are not my own and I give the source of this info (unlike some).

Anyway as someone has mentioned many times one can be anyone on these forums. However you can find out about my career in the RAN here: www.a4ghistory.com so whatever I reveal about myself perhaps is 'cutandpasted'? :-)

BTW it is funny to note that lately people 'cut and paste' my work without acknowledgement. SIGH. :P The work at the above URL is for anyone interested and it is freely available for them to use as they see fit. That is why it is there and I'm glad that it ain't printed to be used then as toilet paper. :twisted:

And by this I mean material unique to the PDFs is made available elsewhere but source not given, but it pleasing to have my own information confirmed by me (second hand). :-) It's cool.
Offline

beepa

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 221
  • Joined: 05 Jan 2007, 22:36
  • Location: Aust.

Unread post11 Apr 2010, 06:28

Soz spad 'cut and paste' was more of a shot at the 'canberra' types who have been to all the meetings, but still offer an opinion based on what they learn on the net. Guys who actually put their time in, like yourself, whom offer up relevant information in an unbiased state should be congradulated for their time and effort....Mabe I can buy u a beer at avalon next year!
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 19235
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post05 May 2010, 01:06

Watch VAAC melt the deck during an automatic landing a few years ago now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXE4yBXjCpQ

"eyeverve — July 18, 2009 — This harrier is outfitted with a new control system. A variant of which will be put on the F-35B Lightning II (Joint Strike Fighter)."
_____________________

VAAC Harrier explanation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhTH9TP6-1c

"eyeverve — July 18, 2009 — A variant of this new control system will be fitted on the F-35B Lightning II (Joint Strike Fighter), which should take some of the workload of flying a fixed wing aircraft with the ability to hover off the pilot."
Last edited by spazsinbad on 05 May 2010, 14:34, edited 1 time in total.
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 19235
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post05 May 2010, 06:19

AV-8A Harrier Tests (Not an USN view point probably - probably USMC - Go USMC!]

http://ussfranklindroosevelt.com/?page_id=2264

"Her final cruise, which concluded on 21 April 1977, included the embarkation of AV-8A Harriers of Marine Attack Squadron (VMA) 231, the historic “Ace of Spades” squadron, marking the first deployment of Vertical Short Take Off and Landing aircraft on board a U.S. Navy aircraft carrier."
&
"From June 1976 to April 1977, VMA-231 deployed with 14 AV-8As aboard the USS Franklin D. Roosevelt (CV-42). This deployment demonstrated that the Harrier could be completely integrated into normal CV air operations. Almost every conceivable takeoff and recovery option was flown: upwind, downwind, crosswind, and before, during, and after re-spots. The Harrier demonstrated not only that VSTOL operations could be conducted within the rigid framework of cyclic operations, but that because of VSTOL’s inherent flexibility, a carrier can launch and recover at any time and steam wherever desired while achieving a combat capability that does not exist when using only conventional aircraft. A STOVL jet is unrestrained by launch/recovery times and mission permitting, could fill in gaps created by the CV cycle. On 13 January 1977, two other Harriers made bow-on approaches and landing aboard the carrier, marking the first time a fixed wing aircraft had made a bow-on, downwind landing aboard a carrier at sea."
Offline

bjr1028

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 516
  • Joined: 07 Jul 2009, 03:34
  • Location: Dubuque, IA

Unread post05 May 2010, 14:07

The F-35B is not a harrier
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 19235
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post05 May 2010, 14:16

However the VAAC Harrier is / was modified to simulate the JSF-B to test concepts (inflight) for operation of the JSF-B.

http://www.vectorsite.net/avav8_3.html

"Another experimental evaluation program focused on the Harrier was conducted by the British military research establishment. This program was focused on making STOVL flight simpler for the pilot, and involved a modification of the second T.2 prototype with the tortured designation "Vectored-thrust Aircraft Advanced flight Control (VAAC)".

The VAAC Harrier was intended to consider solutions to the "three hands" problem of flying the type, where the pilot must handle throttle, stick, and nozzle angle lever during takeoff and landing. The VAAC Harrier was fitted with a new cockpit and control system to allow the aircraft to be flown by pilots without special training. The control system was installed by the Cranfield Institute of Technology, Britain's foremost academic institution for aviation research. The T.2 was delivered to Cranfield in 1983, the modified aircraft made its first flight in 1985, and Cranfield handed it back to the Royal Aircraft Establishment for tests in 1986.

The aircraft still looked like a normal T.2 externally, except for the replacement of the cannon pods with featureless pods containing test avionics. The rear seat was given the new layout, while the front seat retained the old T.2 control layout. This allowed the aircraft to carry a test pilot in the back seat and a "safety pilot" in the front seat who could take over if the new control system did something outside of the script.

The VAAC Harrier was designed to be easily modified to allow testing of different cockpit layouts, control systems, and software, and it has been through many modifications. As of 1995, the program came under the jurisdiction of the new British "Defence Evaluation & Research Agency (DERA)", which absorbed the RAE, though DERA has now been disbanded into two new organizations -- a commercial organization named "QinteQ" (pronounced "kinetic") and a government organization named the "Defence Science & Technology Laboratory (DSTL)". It is unclear which organization inherited the VAAC Harrier and if it remains in service.

The VAAC Harrier was strictly an experimental program and was not intended as a prototype for another Harrier update as such. However, it proved extremely useful for evaluating technologies to be used in the F-35 JSF."
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 19235
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post05 May 2010, 14:43

Flight test 'lite': Qinetiq's VAAC Harrier highlights capabilities of Lockheed Martin's STOVL Joint Strike Fighter By Craig Hoyle on August 25, 2006

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fligh ... -vaac.html

"It’s hard to believe the amount of time that has passed since Lockheed Martin won the USA’s Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) contest, but October will see the fifth anniversary of the company’s victory over rival manufacturer Boeing in the most spectacular of “winner takes all” contests. This October will be another massive month for the US-led project, as Lockheed could conduct the first system development and demonstration phase flight of an F-35 – the next-generation combat aircraft which has now been dubbed the ‘Lightning II’.

Like one of my current favourite aircraft – the US Air Force’s Fairchild A-10 Thunderbolt II, or ‘Warthog’, the JSF poses a major problem to the enthusiastic, but thoroughly untrained aviator such as me: it only has one seat. This means that although we are probably at least six years away from the type’s entry into service with current potential buyers Australia, Canada, Denmark, Israel, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Turkey, the UK and the USA I’m already depressed by the knowledge that I will never get the chance to fly in one.

Thankfully, technology is a wonderful thing and I have now had the good fortune to twice have a go at flying the JSF in the synthetic domain. The first chance came about two years ago when I briefly flew a representative simulator for the JSF as part of a military demonstration here in London, but it wasn’t until just before last month’s Farnborough air show that I got a really good taste of what the new aircraft will be like to operate in one of its most challenging flight scenarios: vertical landing.

The US Marine Corps and the UK Royal Air Force and Navy will be the launch users for the short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) F-35B, with the type to replace their Boeing AV-8B Harrier II and BAE Systems Harrier GR9/9A ground-attack aircraft from around 2012. You’re 10 times more likely to have an accident flying a Harrier than another fast jet type, says Justin Paines, a development test pilot for UK research and technology company Qinetiq who flew 11 sorties on Lockheed’s X-35 demonstrators before leaving the RAF. And that was before he saw me trying to fly a Harrier simulator at the company’s Bedford site…

I had my first flight in a Harrier earlier this year with the RAF’s 20 Sqn operational conversion unit, and now know it was a good job that I didn’t realise how unruly the aircraft is in the hover before I had a go at the controls. I’m ashamed to say it, but flying the simulator for Qinetiq’s unique VAAC Harrier – the oldest two-seat example of the type flying in the world, with more than 30 years of research work now behind it – was a disastrous failure for me in conventional mode. Within seconds of taking control of the aircraft in the hover it was spiraling wildly on its axis and pitching about like a bucking bronco. And then I crashed it. Twice.

But my visit to Bedford wasn’t intended solely to dent my confidence. Qinetiq had invited me to the site to fly the device under the supervision of Paines and two of the UK Ministry of Defence’s test pilots from Boscombe Down in Wiltshire to show me how much better things will be in the F-35B. Qinetiq has since 1999 used its lone VAAC airframe to assess a variety of flight control laws intended to make a JSF pilot’s life a whole lot easier and is now involved in a flight test campaign to fine-tune the likely final configuration. You might have seen a news report yesterday by ITV science editor Lawrence McGinty, who was also receiving instruction at Bedford but – unlike me – was lucky enough to go on to successfully fly and land the real VAAC Harrier at Boscombe Down.

While it is without question one of the greatest engineering marvels of the first century of manned flight, the Harrier is a confusing beast to fly, with more controls to take care of than the pilot has hands. With the F-35B, however, that problem will be no more, and I was assured that after no more than a quick briefing I would be able to fly and land the VAAC Harrier, this time using its so-called unified control laws. After one dummy run with a test pilot looking over my shoulder I locked myself into the domed motion simulator, strapped myself in to the unique Harrier cockpit and prepared to redeem myself in front of the professionals.

Here’s the really good news for anyone reading this who might be pondering embarking on a career as a fighter pilot within the next decade or so: it really will be easy to fly a JSF in the STOVL configuration. Forget the current requirement to control the Harrier’s attitude with the joystick, its forward speed with the throttle and (and here’s the difficult bit) its nozzle control lever to stop it from falling out of the sky. In the F-35B the left-hand will control the throttle inceptor: push forward and you accelerate forwards, pull back and you decelerate and eventually go backwards – and the bigger the input the greater the response. In the hover the right-hand side-stick will be used to control everything else: push left or right and the aircraft will jink to the left or right, push forwards and it will descend, pull back and it will climb. On my two attempts to enter the airfield circuit and land on a pad using visual markers to line the aircraft up I succeeded in getting the VAAC down safely, albeit at a snail’s pace, which did wonders for my dented confidence.

If the modified Harrier’s performance is anything to go by, the stability offered by the F-35B’s liftfan and roll posts will be truly spectacular, with only slight inputs required to manoeuvre it around an airfield or onto the deck of an aircraft carrier or assault ship. And Qinetiq has already successfully demonstrated the VAAC Harrier’s ability to automatically return to and land aboard a rolling and pitching aircraft carrier with centimetric accuracy, meaning that the F-35B’s safety record should be remarkably better than the STOVL platforms it will replace.

It’s not just in the hover that the F-35B will be different to fly. I’ve always found it difficult to maintain the determined height during a turn, but during my simulator ride I found that on each turn I was gaining a considerable amount of height, as my automatic reaction – to pull back on the stick slightly to maintain my altitude – was not necessary in the new generation aircraft. The flight control system knows how much throttle the pilot has requested and will make adjustments during the turn to make his or her life that little bit simpler and free up valuable time for system management tasks.

My initial attempts to hover the VAAC Harrier had been so spectacularly bad in conventional flight mode that my test pilot guide later quipped in an e-mail: “I’m very confident that you have got a good understanding of the differences of control between the old Harrier and where we are going with the JSF control laws!!”

But if all this technology is going to make it so spectacularly easy for a pilot to fly the STOVL variant JSF, what will the next generation of pilots for these aircraft have to boast about over their peers on conventional platforms like the Eurofighter Typhoon? “That’s easy,” says one test pilot: “we’ll still be able to hover!”
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 19235
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post05 May 2010, 15:04

VAAC Harrier enabled this: http://www.youtube.com/user/LockheedMartinVideos

F-35B - Taking STOVL to a New Level

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD-J1KksHUQ

"LockheedMartinVideos — April 16, 2010 — Bringing short take off and vertical landing to a whole new level. The F-35B Joint Strike Fighter has advanced the technology of Short Take Off and Vertical Landing (STOVL)."
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 19235
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post05 May 2010, 15:17

Push the Phreakin' (Red) Button: JPALS (Joint Precision Approach Landing System) would be the technology not mentioned here....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4567923.stm

Push button plane landing hailed The 'push button landing' was onto the deck of HMS Invincible

"Landing Harrier jump jets on ships in bad weather can now be done at the touch of a button, British technology firm Qinetiq has announced. It is hoped the technology will allow pilots to fly missions that would not otherwise have been possible.

The system was based on "some very complicated maths which would remain a trade secret", the project's technical manager Jeremy Howitt said.

The technology could also be used on helicopters, frigates and destroyers.

Red button
The first automatic ship landing by "short take-off vertical landing" (STOVL) aircraft was achieved during a test on HMS Invincible.

It is part of the Ministry of Defence's £2bn contribution to America's $40bn Joint Strike Fighter programme.

'It's something Harrier pilots have always wanted - a big red button to push and take you straight to the coffee bar' Pilot Justin Paines

The device works by linking a STOVL aircraft, via satellite and radio, to an aircraft carrier, Mr Howitt said.

It enables the aircraft and the carrier to know the relative location of one another to within 10cm.

Qinetiq pilot Justin Paines, 41, who was on the Harrier jet equipped with the new system said it made things "completely automatic".

In the new procedure, pilots have to press the button to plot a route in, press it again to accept and then a third time to engage.

"We are trying to make the task of recovering the aircraft to the carrier as simple as possible and let pilots focus on their war mission," he added."
PreviousNext

Return to General F-35 Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: mtoner and 11 guests