Possibility small STOVL carrier USN/USMC

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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spazsinbad

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Unread post24 Sep 2016, 15:29

'Bold Alligator' is one way the USMC are trialling their new tactics. There have been other recent exercises. Your last few sentences seem way out of kilter.
"...Marines will always be useful as long as they can do what their supposed to do, move over a beach. If they can't do that then they might as well join the army."

As I note probably on every occasion this topic is raised: 'the USMC is NOT a second land army' they have returned to their roots - the sea. You say 'marines over the beach'. Yep they are - but differently in the air - to match the new modern equipment they have acquired recently.
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tincansailor

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Unread post25 Sep 2016, 11:07

spazsinbad wrote:'Bold Alligator' is one way the USMC are trialling their new tactics. There have been other recent exercises. Your last few sentences seem way out of kilter.
"...Marines will always be useful as long as they can do what their supposed to do, move over a beach. If they can't do that then they might as well join the army."

As I note probably on every occasion this topic is raised: 'the USMC is NOT a second land army' they have returned to their roots - the sea. You say 'marines over the beach'. Yep they are - but differently in the air - to match the new modern equipment they have acquired recently.


I don't really think were in disagreement. Marine aviation is advancing in leaps and bounds with the F-35B, Osprey, and the new CH-53K. I didn't want to give the impression that I thought the marines should plan to fight like John Wayne in "The sands of Iwo-Jima". I have wondered how the marines would handle a situation like that today?

There are islands held by Iran in the Straights of Hormuz. Iran has mounted missile systems, and guns on them, with reports they have even stored chemical weapons there. Again this is the last kind of operation the marines would want to do, but if the top leadership determined we needed to occupy them how would we do it?

Taking an island is difficult because by it's nature it's a direct assault. The enemy is concentrated in a relatively small area, and would be presumable defending from fortified positions. A helicopter landing force would be more vulnerable then one even moving slowly across water. Anyone old enough to remember hot LZs in Vietnam, (We've had a few in Afghanistan.) knows what I'm talking about. The water borne force also brings more firepower, and armor protection for the troops.

We no longer have Battleships, and Cruisers to conduct massive creeping barrages of landing areas. Our airpower, and naval guns would need to destroy individual defensive positions. Historically marine aviation provided the best CAS of any of the air services because CAS was it's primary mission and the F-35B will prove a quantum leap in performance. The loss of heavy gunfire support means that CAS would be even more important.

All I'm saying is the primary job of the marines is still amphibious assault, and the only way to bring heavy weapons into the battle in a timely manor is still by landing craft. However you would be very right to say the marines are the most truly combined arms force in the world.
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popcorn

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Unread post25 Sep 2016, 13:40

Why storm a beach to occupy? Why occupy? Neutralize the threat. Many ways to do that without storming the beach.
Last edited by popcorn on 25 Sep 2016, 15:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post25 Sep 2016, 14:06

popcorn wrote:Why storm a neach to occupy? Why occupy? Neutralize the threat. Many ways to do that without storming the beach.


Yes your right. An amphibious assault is a last resort. We haven't made a major apposed landing since Inchon. However we maintain the ability because it might be needed someday. Also the implied threat forces a potential foe to disperse forces to defend against a possible landing. From WWII on massive enemy forces were committed to defend beaches that were never invaded.
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Unread post25 Sep 2016, 17:19

The last real amphibious operation was the British landings in the Falklands IIRC. 8000nm from nearest harbour! Totally unexpected and unplanned. One can never be sure what you are going to do or need to do.
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Unread post25 Sep 2016, 17:53

This short recent article has embedded links to other articles about the new way of USMC 'assault from the sea' and is ideal for those less interested in minutiae of such operations and more about the F-35B and LHAs because after all this is an F-35 forum: http://breakingdefense.com/2014/06/mari ... -the-gaps/
&
http://breakingdefense.com/2014/04/hard ... expensive/
&
http://breakingdefense.com/2014/04/mari ... assault/2/

[USMC] Expeditionary Force 21 PDF (3Mb): https://www.scribd.com/document/2161155 ... 2-Mar-2014

All this old stuff will have been mentioned and commented upon before in this forum. Try: viewtopic.php?f=61&t=26629
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Unread post25 Sep 2016, 23:43

It's really a matter of finding the right balance and fighting smarter. The new generation aviation assets eg. MV-22, CH-53E, F-22B expand the envelope and the America-class is specifically designed to optimize their use. Sailors and Marines will eventually figure things out how to best utilize the new assets. In the meantime, investments continue to be made in a new generation of surface connectors to bring heavy stuff ashore including the SSC which replaces LCAC. There's also the UHAC which has the footprint of LCAC but will carry 3 ABRAAMs MBTs ashore in half the time it will take the Jarheads in their AAV 7s.
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Unread post10 Nov 2016, 04:26

God call commemorating battles past. Lots more to choose from for succeeding ships.

https://news.usni.org/2016/11/09/mabus- ... on-islands

Mabus Names LHA-8 After Bougainville Island Campaign in World War II

Navy Secretary Ray Mabus announced today that the next amphibious assault ship would be named after Bougainville island in the Solomons, the location of a strategic World War II battle.

The future Bougainville (LHA-8) will be the third America-class ship and the first Flight 1 design that reintroduces a well deck for surface connector operations. USS America (LHA-6) has no well deck and instead devotes a massive amount of internal space for aviation maintenance, storage and support for more aircraft and for the larger next-generation aircraft such as the F-35B Joint Strike Fighter and MV-22 Osprey. The future Bougainville will strike a middle ground, maintaining that emphasis on aviation while adding back a small well through reductions in medical and other spaces.og
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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Unread post14 Nov 2016, 01:30

Trump reportedly wants a major expansion of USMC so this could result in the expansion of the Gator Fleet,perhaps to the desired number of 38 ships IIRC.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
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Unread post14 Nov 2016, 03:37

i'd be happier if the fleet was actually maintained.
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sferrin

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Unread post14 Nov 2016, 14:08

madrat wrote:i'd be happier if the fleet was actually maintained.



This. The most effective thing they could do in the very near term is acquire sufficient spare parts and training to keep what they've got in good condition. We don't want a paper tiger.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post08 Dec 2016, 04:16

I could not read this article - only the headline - through the hands covering my eyes. SOMEBODY STOP ME!.... JENNAAAAA
Is ‘A’ really better than ‘B’? – Jenna Higgins
06 Dec 2016 Flight Lieutenant Jenna Higgins is a currently serving Royal Australian Air Force Air Combat Officer. The opinions expressed are hers alone and do not reflect those of the Royal Australian Air Force, the Australian Defence Force, or the Australian Government.

"[??? - OH OK then...] ‘Flexibility is the key to air power’ is one of the favourite clichés of the professional airman. In this post, Flight Lieutenant Jenna Higgins asks if, in light of the USMC’s recent successful proof of concept demonstration of the F-35B VSTOL, the ADF should demonstrate flexibility in reviewing the decision of whether to acquire the F-35B to operate off its newly commissioned Canberra Class LHDs...."

Source: http://centralblue.williamsfoundation.o ... a-higgins/
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Unread post08 Dec 2016, 04:39

popcorn wrote:..

The future Bougainville (LHA-8) will be the third America-class ship and the first Flight 1 design that reintroduces a well deck for surface connector operations. USS America (LHA-6) has no well deck and instead devotes a massive amount of internal space for aviation maintenance, storage and support for more aircraft and for the larger next-generation aircraft such as the F-35B Joint Strike Fighter and MV-22 Osprey. The future Bougainville will strike a middle ground, maintaining that emphasis on aviation while adding back a small well through reductions in medical and other spaces..


...it's called a "mini-dock" but it should be left out of the America design and added to additional LX-R boats coming along with the new LHAs... those extra LX-Rs could be added to the ESG etc.
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Unread post08 Dec 2016, 04:51

spazsinbad wrote:I could not read this article - only the headline - through the hands covering my eyes. SOMEBODY STOP ME!.... JENNAAAAA
Is ‘A’ really better than ‘B’? – Jenna Higgins
06 Dec 2016 Flight Lieutenant Jenna Higgins is a currently serving Royal Australian Air Force Air Combat Officer. The opinions expressed are hers alone and do not reflect those of the Royal Australian Air Force, the Australian Defence Force, or the Australian Government.

"[??? - OH OK then...] ‘Flexibility is the key to air power’ is one of the favourite clichés of the professional airman. In this post, Flight Lieutenant Jenna Higgins asks if, in light of the USMC’s recent successful proof of concept demonstration of the F-35B VSTOL, the ADF should demonstrate flexibility in reviewing the decision of whether to acquire the F-35B to operate off its newly commissioned Canberra Class LHDs...."

Source: http://centralblue.williamsfoundation.o ... a-higgins/



....are we now asking for a port visit for the Wasp to Newcastle next year???
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Unread post09 Jan 2017, 21:43

Just when youse thought it was safe to go back into the water (summer here in OZ) you hear BADOOO BADOOO (cue the JAWS theme musick): [LONG POST BEST READ AT SOURCE]
Putting F-35B on the Canberra Class LHDs: The Debate Continues
09 Jan 2017 Steve George

"This year’s opening article revisits the F-35B debate sparked by Jenna Higgins’ post from December 2016. Steve George’s response addresses the key issues.

Back in November 2014, I wrote a piece for the Australian Strategic Policy Institute on potential F-35B operations from the new RAN LHDs (LHD and F-35B: The Debate Opens Up). It received a mention in a recent piece here on The Central Blue by Flight Lieutenant Jenna Higgins (Is ‘A’ really better than ‘B’?), which set off a spirited discussion. As a result, I’ve been asked by The Central Blue team to provide a stand-alone piece to update my original article and touch on some of the main issues raised. My aim, however, hasn’t changed – to stimulate informed and objective debate on how the Australian Defence Force (ADF) could best deploy its F-35 force capability.

FLTLT Higgins referred to ‘a heated debate’ on the F-35B/LHD question. It’s worth noting that discussions about naval (or maritime) air power often seem to get ‘heated’, particularly when the word ‘carrier’ appears, or when it appears to compete with land based air power. Sadly, it’s my experience that much of the heat doesn’t shed any light, and the recent discussion thread on The Central Blue had some examples of the genre, which I’ll address. I’ll also update my assessment of the technical issues surrounding F-35B/LHD integration....

...Conclusion
Countries’ defence plans are always changing in response to circumstances and external developments. In my view, the ADF’s intended area of operations, which is largely maritime in nature, will become a far less certain place in the years to come. Again, just my view, but previous assumptions on the availability of HNS [Host Nation Support] will have to be reviewed along with existing plans for deployments of a purely land-based F-35A force.

The F-35 will deliver a ‘game changing’ capability for the ADF. Surely, as F-35B equipped US LHAs and LHDs (and possibly the UK’s Queen Elizabeth-class carriers) become increasingly common visitors to the China/Pacific region, the ADF will have to look again at how it might develop an ability to more freely deploy its main striking force at long range. Or how it might protect its surface forces against developing air threats.

When those reviews take place, it is to be hoped that objective and honest analysis prevails over single service interests. There’s too much at stake."

"Steve George was an air engineer officer in the Royal Navy for 28 years, and served in HMS Invincible during the 1982 Falklands operation. During his career, he was closely involved with the Sea Harrier, and also with joint RN/RAF Harrier operations. Retiring from the RN as a commander, he joined the JSF programme to work on F-35B ship suitability. He is now an engineering consultant."


Source: http://centralblue.williamsfoundation.o ... ve-george/
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