Possibility small STOVL carrier USN/USMC

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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spazsinbad

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Unread post12 Mar 2015, 02:05

The LHDs and the rotor-wing option—a pilot’s response
11 Mar 2015 David Baddams

"Where H is for helicopter, emphasising the H in LHD is imminent. HMAS Canberra is now due to conduct initial underway deck, embarkation and aviation support trials with ADF ground-support helicopters. In a recent Strategist post [ http://www.aspistrategist.org.au/the-lh ... ng-option/ ] Albert Palazzo and Antony Trentini advocated the use of SH-60 Romeo helicopters from the LHDs for anti-submarine warfare, in a new tasking to complement the oft-stated amphibious and humanitarian operations. Their welcome piece expands thinking of the LHDs in a strategic light, but includes yet another ‘swing’ at possible F-35B operations from the LHDs. I hope this follow-up helps add some light to this new strand in ASPI’s LHD discussions.

The LHDs are not LHDs. They’re ‘strategic projection ships’, a clunky term admittedly that doesn’t much help describe their full capabilities. In plain English, they’re better described as multi-role flat-tops. LHD is an obsolescent and single-role label that’s used for easy signage, but does not indicate the possible air-power capabilities Australia has to hand with these ships. Rotary ASW is certainly one of those capabilities, and the ADF already states that the Canberras will be able to support Romeos as well as the ground-support MRH-90, Chinook and Tiger aircraft. But as expert contributors to The Strategist have pointed out, they’re designed to accept fixed-wing aircraft—they’re not solely a ‘rotary-wing’ platform.

Now to the big picture. For decades the ADF did precisely what Dr Palazzo and Mr Trentini suggest. The carrier HMAS Melbourne was primarily an ASW ship, using four generations of specialist aircraft over 25 years. Her Cold War patrols around the Pacific were strategically significant both for Australia and the alliance. However, they would not have happened without organic fast air. Not even America’s specialist Essex-class ASW carriers patrolled without air defence: by definition ASW happens nowhere near a friendly fighter base. Whereas the threats then were long-range Soviet and other hostile multi-engine aircraft, an LHD-Romeo combination with escorts in the South China or Philippine seas or Indian Ocean would also need to consider the rapidly emerging threat of carrier aircraft and long-range missiles aimed at both ship and helicopter. Far from benign, the waters of an LHD ASW patrol amid aggressor submarine and potent sir threat would be incredibly dangerous. Big ship, multi-helo ASW in distant waters is not for the faint of heart....

...Dr Palazzo and Mr Trentini have made an effective forward scout’s foray into LHD strategic potential. Using the LHDs for ASW is a valid idea for ADF examination, as most of the time the ships will not be loaded to the gunwales with soldiers and vehicles for amphibious training or cargo for disaster relief. While some hope that this year’s White Paper pushes the F-35B concept towards comprehensive analysis in the lead-up to a decision on Project AIR 6000 Phase 2C, a strong case could be made in the future for analysis of all LHD air capabilities and how they could fit into strategic planning for forward defence. That certainly includes embarked ASW. Alas, without organic and persistent fast air it wouldn’t be much of a real-world option."

Source: http://www.aspistrategist.org.au/the-lh ... -response/
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popcorn

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Unread post12 Mar 2015, 03:06

The sooner the White Paper comes out the better. First justify the business case then we can talk implementation.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
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Unread post12 Mar 2015, 09:11

popcorn wrote:The sooner the White Paper comes out the better. First justify the business case then we can talk implementation.


Exactly, i'm not a fan of it, i'm not sure it's worth it financially, but if they can make the appropriate business case then go for it!
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Unread post12 Mar 2015, 09:22

Now that it has been mentioned twice - someone explain what the 'business case' is please? Thanks.
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Unread post12 Mar 2015, 11:00

spazsinbad wrote:Now that it has been mentioned twice - someone explain what the 'business case' is please? Thanks.

To my layman's mind it‘s what Oz defines as National Interests including security concerns and Foreign Policy directions it intends to pursue supported my appropriate military doctrine.
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Unread post12 Mar 2015, 11:16

When offices in the ADO or companies contracted by Defence to study how they can meet future challenges, they do a business case analysis (BCA) which roughly includes:

a capability gap analysis (eg, air supremacy against increasingly more powerful neighbours),
a requirements analysis (air supremacy requires X, Y, Z),
option identification (Super Hornet, JSF, Eurofighter Typhoon, etc),
risk analysis (what's the financial and capability penalty if the program fails in certain areas),
economic analysis (which is cheaper / has financial benefits),
and outlines an experimentation campaign (eg, we send people in to analyse how well the F-35B runs operational on a Wasp).

Once the BCA is finished and the cost is deemed reasonable, then it turns into a DMO acquisition program.
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Unread post12 Mar 2015, 11:43

Thanks all. ADO had me stumped (I NEVER think about this stuff - at all :doh: ) Frickin BeenThereNeverDoneThat Counters: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian ... ganisation
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Unread post14 Mar 2015, 02:28

To get youse in the mood....
L 61 Juan Carlos I Apontaje de un harrier
Spanish aircraft carrier operations

Published on Dec 24, 2014

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Unread post25 Mar 2015, 00:56

LHA-6 still has a ways to go before deployment in FY2017 AFAIK. When F-35B goes IOC, will USS Wasp have the honor of carrying out the first deployment at sea? Perhaps even get it's baptism of fire vs ISIS?



http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/m ... /22991309/
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Unread post25 Mar 2015, 03:36

popcorn wrote:LHA-6 still has a ways to go before deployment in FY2017 AFAIK. When F-35B goes IOC, will USS Wasp have the honor of carrying out the first deployment at sea? Perhaps even get it's baptism of fire vs ISIS?



http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/m ... /22991309/


Maybe. They just spent a sh*tton of money upgrading its combat systems, as well as mods to operate the F-35B.
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Unread post25 Mar 2015, 04:21

popcorn wrote:LHA-6 still has a ways to go before deployment in FY2017 AFAIK. When F-35B goes IOC, will USS Wasp have the honor of carrying out the first deployment at sea? Perhaps even get it's baptism of fire vs ISIS?
I wouldn't be surprised to see the JSF held back for the next several years unless there is dire need for VLO capability just to drop a few JDAMs. The IOC copies don't have nearly the diversity in deliverable weapons and the bodged-on sensors carried by older fighters are currently better-suited for COIN work.

Training, on the other hand, will be quite interesting to observe in the near-term.
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Unread post25 Mar 2015, 04:27

The Block 2B will have the weapons that the USMC wanted and that the Harrier typically carries, that being 2 JDAMs or Paveway4s.

THe F-35B @ 2B will fly faster, go farther, see more and share more than the Harrier EVER could.
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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Unread post25 Mar 2015, 05:06

IOC means that it‘s ready to go to war if the Corps deems it necessary. So it won't surprise me if it sees action sooner rather than later. Aother tool in the toolbox.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
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Unread post27 Mar 2015, 11:20

IF interested there is a story about what it takes HELOwise to fly safely from first LHD in Oz:
Canberra taking steps to full flight
27 March 2015 LEUT Emily Kennedy (author), LSIS Helen Frank (author)

"...“Aircraft operating limits take into consideration things like wind speed and direction, weight of the aircraft and the pitch and roll of the moving flight deck - and with six spots to individually test along with aft facing and running landings, the scale of the trials is significant....

...Ship helicopter operating limits [SHOL] are developed for all aspects of operations, including launch, recovery, degraded states of recovery, vertical replenishment and on deck evolutions such as aircraft movement or refuelling. These are then overlaid to whole ship evolutions including amphibious operations using the ship’s Landing Craft....

...Canberra departed Jervis Bay to conduct hot weather trials off the coast of Townsville before she proceeds south in April to do cold weather flight trials off Tasmania. The ship will return to Fleet Base East, Sydney in May before commencing her work up at sea across all her capabilities."

Source: http://news.navy.gov.au/en/Mar2015/Fleet/1917
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Unread post07 Apr 2015, 00:33

A couple of interesting videos highlighting Osprey versatility and extended reach to provide a rapid-response capability to war-planners. Scenario depicts Harriers but F-35 will bring so much more to the party.


http://www.sldinfo.com/talon-reach-long-range-raids/
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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