F-35A maximum G rating lower than 5?!

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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outlaw162

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Unread post14 Feb 2020, 17:40

I agree, some of the simulations are very good.

The ultimate BFM simulator was the TAC Aces two-cockpit visual simulator (with G seats) at Luke in the 80's. Coming from the 105 to the F-4, it was obvious most of the long time 105 guys were not really up to speed, not because they weren't capable but because generally you avoided prolonged maneuvering in that aircraft and BFM currency requirements were minimal & in DACT you generally just went fast and relied on mutual support.

We scheduled a unit deployment to Luke to use the TAC Aces sim for refresher. Conveniently, the cockpits were both F-4 cockpits (although E models). Having come from the Tucson ANG RTU (A-7/F-100), I acted as the instructor for a lot of the training.

The best feature of the sim was that you could freeze it at any point, from either cockpit with the NWS (nose wheel steering) button on the stick. This was ideal for showing the 'too soon, too much, too late, too little' as QS describes. You could then talk it over using the mics between the two cockpits.

I recall one session after lunch where the maneuver being trained was the nose high rolling nose-tail displacement maneuver, commonly called the 'barrel roll' attack. With the trainee set up on a perch, I'd start the defensive turn and look back and monitor his progress. Poor guy was really having problems consistently 'dishing out' of the barrel roll, quite nose low. Common error.

After 3 or 4 attempts in which I froze the sim to talk it over, we started the next one and about half way thru, HE froze the sim and it got quiet. I said "Brown, Brown are you there?" (Being a part-timer and a farmer, Brown was an appropriate call-sign for him). Finally you could hear him coughing, and he said "I think I've got a green bean stuck in my nose." That's how good the simulation was. :shock:

Now if you had big bucks, you could have something like that. :D
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quicksilver

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Unread post14 Feb 2020, 18:05

:lmao: :thumb:
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steve2267

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Unread post14 Feb 2020, 20:30

quicksilver wrote::lmao: :thumb:


X2

:thanks:

Dunno if you can answer these next questions, and I get them "it depends", but am looking for more "rule of thumbs" or typical averages.

Shaw admonished when performing a yo-yo, either hi or low, that a series of smaller yo-yos is better than one big one. Probably has to do with "too soon, too late, too much etc." For simple training wheels discussion where the bandit is in a level defensive turn, when one takes a bite with, say a high yo-yo... how much nose above the horizon are you "typically" going? 5°? 10°? 30°? How much altitude are you typically gaining at the top of the yo-yo? 100ft? 500? 1000? More? From the time you initiate the pitchup for the yo-yo, til your back down at the same altitude is how long? 1sec? 5? 20? Am just trying to get some context here.

Regarding the 'barrel-roll attack', how much angle-off-tail (AOT?) is there before you start thinking that way? 60°? 90°? More? How long does it typically take to complete the roll from the beginning of the pitchup? Am guessing about 9sec +/- (based on changing direction about 90°, and an "average" turn rate from Gen Olds day of 9°/sec for turn rate. But maybe as little as 7sec? So, 7-9sec?

TIA
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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steve2267

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Unread post14 Feb 2020, 20:51

Am going to read through the Italian stallion's book, Art of the Kill; might answer some of my questions. Feel free to answer my previous questions (or not).

It's been a while since I had Falcon 3.0 on a PC. What sim, preferably that also does a good job of several aircraft, but most interested, I guess, in the Viper (unless an older or different aircraft would teach or expose me to these lessons better)? Prefer not to break the bank. Also, what stick / throttle quadrant would you suggest? (Can you get away without rudder pedals?)

TIA
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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outlaw162

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Unread post14 Feb 2020, 21:03

The 'depends' in these academic rear-aspect employment setups really comes down to how much fuselage mis-alignment you were willing to temporarily accept to gain or preserve an advantage as you alluded to.

In the 'real' world, not knowing the opponent, I would be hesitant to accept much mis-alignment during offensive maneuvering initially until the opponent proved I could get away with it....or proved the opposite, in which case I'd be somewhat worried.

During daily with-in squadron training (in non FBW aircraft with limiters) you pretty well knew what your opponent was capable of....i.e. the squadron hierarchy or pecking order. Some guys you could get away with a lot, some not so much.
Win a few, lose a few.

(BTW "Brown", to his credit, was one of the few guys they allowed to transition from the C-124 to the F-105, so he knew nothing but the F-105 A2A philosophy initially, and eventually adapted well for a bomber pilot.)
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quicksilver

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Unread post14 Feb 2020, 21:29

“Shaw admonished when performing a yo-yo, either hi or low, that a series of smaller yo-yos is better than one big one.“

Agree. Why? A smart bogey will use the time you are not pressing him to regain energy and/or build more angles to force an overshoot and change the geometry of the fight — typically a scissors, rolling or horizontal/flat. (‘Probably has to do with "too soon, too late, too much etc’ — Yes)

“For simple training wheels discussion where the bandit is in a level defensive turn...”

Nose-low slice turn more common traditionally, but depends on perf of the jet and the set-up. Horiz turn can be highly effective for the right jet (eg —like a Viper).

“...how much nose above the horizon are you "typically" going?”

‘How high’ is in relation to the target’s plane of motion, not the horizon. How high? Go back to the purpose — until the problem that I saw building (angles, track-crossing rate, nose-to-tail) was relieved/manageable/under control. Lotsa little bites better than one big one unless you effed it up or it was just a really tough bogey.

‘How much altitude...?’ Never looked at altitude unless the airspace was capped.

‘From the time you initiate the pitchup for the yo-yo, til your back down at the same altitude is how long?

Never timed it. Didn’t care. ‘Until angles problem etc resolved‘ just like above. Remember, you’re watching the bogey the whole time you’re doing the yo-yo; the maneuver is not flown looking in the cockpit or HUD. Reference some discussions we’ve had around here about jets that give one proprioceptive feedback — eg different levels of G, or buffet that tells you what alpha range or general airspeed range you’re in. There is an element of ‘energy management’ in virtually everything you do in a jet, whether it is gaining it, spending it, or preserving/maintaining it. Sometimes it’s tactical, sometimes administrative, sometimes just wise for what might come later (like...they just shut down the deck because a tug broke down in the only landing spot not occupied by another aircraft).
Last edited by quicksilver on 14 Feb 2020, 21:51, edited 2 times in total.
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post14 Feb 2020, 21:32

steve2267 wrote:It's been a while since I had Falcon 3.0 on a PC. What sim, preferably that also does a good job of several aircraft, but most interested, I guess, in the Viper (unless an older or different aircraft would teach or expose me to these lessons better)? Prefer not to break the bank. Also, what stick / throttle quadrant would you suggest? (Can you get away without rudder pedals?)

TIA


Let's classify sims by the level of detail.
Study level - nearly every aspect of the plane will be modeled in the final release. Cockpit switchology, systems and subsystems, and a top notch flight model are expected here.

Professional level - A good attempt is made at a flight model to include idiosyncratic behavior at the limits, systems on the other hand may be greatly simplified even if basic function (e.g. radar range) is fairly accurate.

Casual - A basic flight model is designed where only a few parameters determine how a plane will fly (e.g. wing area, CL max, uninstalled thrust rating)

Arcade - Devs did whatever they wanted for the sake of the game (Ace Combat)

Falcon 4.0 on GOG.com ($10) and then get the BMS 4.34 update (free) for the best Study Viper for the Money. There are a few other Professional planes it tries to model well and a ton of Casual planes.

Digital Combat Simulator has the most Study level planes but it the most expensive by far. $55-80 per Study level aircraft and MOST of those are still in Early-Access Beta.
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marsavian

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Unread post14 Feb 2020, 22:34

Steve, if you haven't already I strongly suggest checking out the Growling Sidewinder channel on YouTube. It's primarily DCS based and the majority of his videos are BFM ACM dogfights where guns kill is the aim. What makes his channel quite unique is he runs through every twist, turn and yo-yo of each dogfight in Tac View in the second half of each video explaining who did each maneuver right or wrong WRT position or energy state. It will help you visualise the 3D nature of ACM.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCh2rDh ... LlzL3QEwgp
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post14 Feb 2020, 23:06

marsavian wrote:runs through every twist, turn and yo-yo of each dogfight in Tac View in the second half of each video explaining who did each maneuver right or wrong WRT position or energy state. It will help you visualise the 3D nature of ACM.

For every minute I spend in a mission in DCS I spend two in TacView analyzing everything that went right or wrong. I often see things like "Woah, I was lucky to survive that" or "Wow, I made that hard pull at just the right time"
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steve2267

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Unread post14 Feb 2020, 23:21

Is one monitor enough? Or how many horizontal pixels do you prefer?

Will a sim take advantage of 3 “wraparound” monitors?

Do any yet take advantage of VR goggles (e.g. Oculus Rift)?
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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steve2267

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Unread post15 Feb 2020, 00:22

Aaah, I see that DCS describes required hardware etc and includes VR option.

Still curious about how many pixels you guys like.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post15 Feb 2020, 01:43

Vr
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Unread post16 Feb 2020, 00:33

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
Arcade - Devs did whatever they wanted for the sake of the game (Ace Combat)

The good Ace Combat games had the problem of always being Vietnam regardless of the aircraft (after you get past the order of magnitude too many missiles). The bad ones...could be like playing a weird version of Dance Dance Revolution.
Einstein got it backward: one cannot prevent a war without preparing for it.

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