Pakistani Air Force F-16 pilots

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Asif

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Unread post13 Sep 2006, 13:45

Griffen wrote:Hi. I am a PAF Viper pilot.


Griffen. Welcome to F-16.Net. :D
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blain2

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Unread post13 Sep 2006, 14:44

Meathook,

I responded specifically to the point that PAF pilots who come to the US for conversion onto F-16s cannot muster past IFF. I have already stated above why I think this is a generalization of the nth degree so I will not repeat myself.

I thought it odd for you (with such immense experience in the field) to make the statement "I bet flying Cessna's would be a task by itself." which, to be fair, is BS!

I have asked you to share your own specific interactions with PAF (much like what Gums has stated ) for us to be able to discuss, which I think is the reason for this thread, is it not?

I am not going rah rah PAF! here...simply stating that they are not as bad as you have made them out to be. I can understand if you go on the spiel about us "cutting them slack" etc. but you know, that is fairly normal...we all tend to do the same for our mates from back home (including Americans and the rest)...I can tell you that in certain aspects of training (non-Airforce and Airforce specific), even we cut slack for foreigners who come to Pakistan. In the past this has included students from the US (Special Forces) as well but overall that does not mean that an outfit is junk. You have to, simply because it is hard for foreigners to adjust to the tempo, language, and in some cases even methodology of the courses being taught.

Generalization is what is killing this thread.
Last edited by blain2 on 13 Sep 2006, 14:58, edited 1 time in total.
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blain2

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Unread post13 Sep 2006, 14:55

Actually I re-read your post about your interaction with the various AFs and PAF as well. I appreciate it.
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Meathook

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Unread post13 Sep 2006, 15:07

Yea..I thought I was specific in my response but I'm done with the thread....take what you like from it.

I am ending my posting in this area. I wrote my concerns and comments as you read.
More than likely have "been there and done that at some point", it sure keeps you young if done correctly
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Pumpkin

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Unread post13 Sep 2006, 15:08

Griffen wrote:Hi. I am a PAF Viper pilot. Trust me we never brag that we are the best AF in the world. Unfortunately we seriously lag technologically as an AF. But for the resources our country has, i can say proudly that we spend a great sum on personnel training and equipment. Our pilots have faired well in aerial engagements in subcontinent and also in Arab-Israel wars. Despite complete sanctions with no spare parts or support from US, We were able to maintain our Vipers for a decade and have flown well over 100,000 accident free hours. To some degree it presents a healthy prefessionalism of our personnel. We have participated in some international exercises with modern Air Forces and we know where we stand. I respect Meathooks opinions but i beg to disagree with him .


Griffen,

a very gentleman reply, stating the challenges your AF was/is facing but not undermining your confidence and pride.

welcome aboard :D
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Griffen

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Unread post13 Sep 2006, 15:30

Thank you all for the warm welcome.
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Unread post13 Sep 2006, 15:39

Griffen wrote:Thank you all for the warm welcome.
Genuine fighter pilot qualities are always welcome. 8)
Any mission,anytime,anywhere.
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blain2

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Unread post13 Sep 2006, 16:16

Meathook wrote:Yea..I thought I was specific in my response but I'm done with the thread....take what you like from it.

I am ending my posting in this area. I wrote my concerns and comments as you read.


As I said earlier, I appreciate your feedback.
Regards
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Meathook

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Unread post13 Sep 2006, 16:16

U 2
More than likely have "been there and done that at some point", it sure keeps you young if done correctly
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blain2

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Unread post13 Sep 2006, 17:25

Gums wrote:Salute!

First of all, evrybody PLZ be careful slinging bazonga all around.

I have already stated my personal opinion of the original PAF folks who came to Hill in the early 80's.

My student was "Khattuck" or "Kattuk" or close to that. Hell, it was over 20 years ago.

So you can ask any of the other IP's who helped those PAF cadre what they thot. They will tell you what I did.

The initial PAF cadre were very competent in all aspects of the fighter business, especially air-to-air. The computer systems were new to them, but they quickly got the hang of it, and did well at Eagle Range. They were really sharp on instruments.

As far as actual and official contact with the PAF, I was an IP or academic instructor for all of the EPG folks, the IAF, and the PAF. I did not have much contact with the Egyptian folks.

out,


Hi Gums,

One question, did your student "Khuttuk" by any chance have a first name of "Abbas"? There was an officer by the name of Abbas Khattak who led the PAF as its chief in the years 94-97. Almost all of the PAF chiefs come from the F-16 sqns so maybe this was the same individual. :?:
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Steve_Davies

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Unread post13 Sep 2006, 20:22

Blain

Looks like I've yanked your chain. Let me quantify and qualify the sources for my post.

Firstly, I cannot name my sources for obvious reasons. However, I can tell you that the sentiment echoed in my post was related to me by several experienced instructors *and* a squadron commander. Statements like "the majority of Pakistani students in the class cannot grasp fighter fndamentals", "we have Pakistani students that are close to being a danger to fly with", and "if this student was an American he would be washed out and sent to a multi-engine MWS" were frequently heard. If you want to argue that this can't possibly be true, then that's your choice. Personally, I believe that to do so would be akin to pissing in the wind. I've visited IFF several times, I have conducted official and off-the-record interviews, and in both tape-on and tape-off scenarios the message comes across loud and clear.

Secondly, although the Pakistani students at IFF are graded using exactly the same system as the US studs, the criteria for them to pass or hook are ride are dramatically relaxed. So, whereas a US stud my receive a grade of 4 (out of 5; where 1 is exceptional, and 5 is unsafe) and have to refly a sortie, a Pakistani student may receive a 3 (and pass) for flying to exactly the same standard. As I said in my original post, the IPs are under clear instructions to ensure that the students from Pakistan graduate IFF. Again, argue with this if you like, but that's straight from the mouths of the guys at the sharp end.

Finally, you maintain that the Pakistani pilots do not go straight to the F-16 from IFF. That may be true for the most part, but I understand that in recent years some guys have gone straight to the jet. PAF is not my area of expertise, but that is the information passed to me by IPs.

I'm not going to get into a pissing war with you: that's what I've been told, and that's what I am inclined to believe. Set this all as a backdrop to the standard of Pakistani Viper pilots, and I don't think that the original poster's assertion that Pakistani VIper drivers are the best in the world can possibly hold true.

If you’re an IFF IP and think that this is all BS, then PM me your name and .mil email address and I’ll ask my sources why their experience differs so greatly from yours.
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blain2

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Unread post13 Sep 2006, 21:06

Steve,

No chain yanked here. I think this statement pretty much sums up the reason for the sorry performance:

Finally, you maintain that the Pakistani pilots do not go straight to the F-16 from IFF. That may be true for the most part, but I understand that in recent years some guys have gone straight to the jet. PAF is not my area of expertise, but that is the information passed to me by IPs.


Just thought that your statement over-generalized the entire PAF just because of a certain batch of pilots (those too very young) in training at Moody. In the past, the guys that were sent to the US for conversion onto the F-16s had been operational on combat sqns (after having flown 4 different types prior to coming onto F-16s).

I think you and Meathook know better about a specific group of pilots and their performance is pretty sorry to be very honest. But again the knowledge that I have was not about the recent intake which I have stated in my earlier could be younger pilots fresh from BFT.

I also stand by my earlier post that PAF does not have the best pilots, but decent ones for the theater in which they operate.
Last edited by blain2 on 13 Sep 2006, 21:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Steve_Davies

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Unread post13 Sep 2006, 21:14

Blain

I would agree that you could look at my post and see it as an over-generalisation, but I suppose that it's an over-genralisation that responds to a post that starts off with a huge generalisation itself!

I also dislike threads like this one - they're always futile and usually end up hurting peoples' feelings, afterall - but the original poster did invite responses...

Anyway, I am sure that there are some excellent PAF Viper pilots out there, just as there must be from all of the Air Forces that fly this ubiquitous little jet!
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Meathook

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Unread post13 Sep 2006, 21:20

Agreed........
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blain2

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Unread post13 Sep 2006, 21:26

Steve, I agree...to be very honest as one of Pakistani origin, this is one type of a thread which I hate to see (this one actually made me cringe) since its all based on jingoistic hearsay and by trying to put a little bit of grounding on it, it makes me look like a fool who is tooting his own horn (or that of the PAF ;-).

I learned a thing or two here for which I am grateful to you, Meat, Gums and Griffen. Hopefully what I shared was not too out of place.

Regards
Last edited by blain2 on 13 Sep 2006, 21:40, edited 1 time in total.
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