PAF F-16 vs MiG-21 - New Evidence

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jedit

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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 03:37

weasel1962 wrote:So now the story is that the mig-21 managed to emerge from the mountain undetected by the F-16 but get shot down by an Amraam fired from..... ?


IAF fans have a fantasy ending they all agree on, an F16 was downed by the Mig 21. Now to convince themselves, they keep piling up hypotheses to create a chain of events that appears theoretically possible, at least to them, even if it lacks evidence.
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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 05:19

notafanboy wrote:Effect of proportional navigation will be more profound in WVR or SRAAMs because that's where angle will vary the most. In BVR scenario, yes the missile will fly upwards but that's usually not the SOP that pilots are trained to do ideally. They would rather position their a/c much above the altitude of bogey so that they get max range and KE as additional bonus before lobbing BVRs.

No, proportional navigation is far more important for BVR missiles because all of them except for Meteor will coast in the mid and terminal phase. They do not have excess energy to waste like SRAAM because their motor are no longer burning at terminal phase. Moreover, the engagement time for BVR shoot is longer than for WVR shoot (because missiles have to fly further). Thus, without lead intercept, your missiles will have to make very dramatic maneuvers.
Furthermore, regardless of how much higher your a/c compared to the bogey, the BVR missile will almost always climb up, sort of a semi ballistic arcs. The only situation where they don't is when the range is too short and a ballistic arcs is not necessary
1.PNG



notafanboy wrote:I am assuming the Red curve is straight line in head-on and tail chase parameters of missile without proportional navigation because that will define true linear range. But it's an off-boresight launch using HMS so pilot does know range.

and I am telling you the value shown on missile engagement envelope MANUAL is not the kinematic range of the missile but the value to let the pilot know whether his missile will reach the target if he press launch button. If it just the kinematic range then the kinematic range of missile in head-on and tail-on situation will be the same. Only when we consider whether the missile can reach target or not that these values become different.
The distance that will be given to the pilot by his radar is the green line, if the green line value is smaller than the value shown in the manual diagram then the missile has a chance to reach target. If the green line value is greater than value shown in the manual diagram then the missile will not be able to reach target. That, however, doesn't mean the trajectory of the missile will be the same as the green line. The actual flight path of the missile is the one in blue, but the manual doesn't show that because that not the kind of information the pilot will be interested in and he doesn't have time to extrapolate
167-Figure3.44-1.png



notafanboy wrote:I am not basing eyewitness accounts only on what they saw in sky but what they saw on ground and that is two pilots. Eyewitnesses even described second pilot as a Sikh which clearly mig 21 pilot was not. Sikh mean a guy with turban and beard.

I haven't seen any video of them capturing 2 pilots on the ground, besides, I don't think you are allowed to wear a turban or even having a thick beard if you are flying a fighter. Those things will certainly getting in the way of the helmet and the oxygen mask

notafanboy wrote:Mig 21 Bison or Mig21 type 93 is equipped with IRST from Russia's URALs optical-mechanical plant.

Mig-21 Bison isnot equipped with IRST, In fact, there isn't any Mig-21version equipped with IRST.
IRST system are really easy to identify, if any Mig-21 have one, we would have known by now.
Aggressors-highlight.jpg

Eurofighter Typhoon showing IRST.jpg


Compare that to Indian Mig-21
india-air-force-mig-21.jpg



notafanboy wrote:AFAIK, the standard practice in IAF using Mig21 for kills is to switch off radar, guided by data-link and switch on ELTA 8222 pod for getting near to bogey and getting kill using R-73. Kashmir valley is a bowl and Mig 21 suddenly emerged from behind the mountains at 15k feet and that's where F-16 failed to detect. Since Mig21 never used its RADAR, there is no question of RWR going off

If you operate your Jammer, your direction will be shown on enemy RWR, because jammer is also a transmitter like radar. It can deny targeting information but they don't make your fighter invisible. Furthermore, according to the blog post given by OP, Mig-21 pilot uses his radar to lock on F-16 before launching R-73
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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 21:26

I dont think there is any point of dragging this topic.

The facts are simple. IAF:0 PAF-1

The 2nd kill: IF it has been achieved anyway then it definitely wasn't by the mig shot down. All 4 missiles were recovered with seekers. Two of them were burnt but that is beside the point.

Bruised ego's at play perhaps.
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Unread post18 Oct 2019, 00:56

Yes, thread has ran its course and the topic haw been debated ad naseum in other threads.

If an R73 downed anyone that day it was only a MiG-21Bison hit. Otherwise, there is zero proof an R73 was even fired once.
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Unread post18 Oct 2019, 01:05

I'm sure this thread can reach a lucky 6. We can do it. Just needs a bit more imagination.
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Unread post18 Oct 2019, 15:03

weasel1962 wrote:I'm sure this thread can reach a lucky 6. We can do it. Just needs a bit more imagination.

airomerix wrote:I dont think there is any point of dragging this topic.

The facts are simple. IAF:0 PAF-1

The 2nd kill: IF it has been achieved anyway then it definitely wasn't by the mig shot down. All 4 missiles were recovered with seekers. Two of them were burnt but that is beside the point.

Bruised ego's at play perhaps.

madrat wrote:Yes, thread has ran its course and the topic haw been debated ad naseum in other threads.

If an R73 downed anyone that day it was only a MiG-21Bison hit. Otherwise, there is zero proof an R73 was even fired once.


:D Look at this doomy gloomy lot. I am not debating here for India or IAF. I refuse some sub standard PR campaign pull one over me specially looking back the credibility of Pakistan.

Super busy schedule. May reply by Sunday.
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Unread post19 Oct 2019, 03:46

notafanboy wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:I'm sure this thread can reach a lucky 6. We can do it. Just needs a bit more imagination.

airomerix wrote:I dont think there is any point of dragging this topic.

The facts are simple. IAF:0 PAF-1

The 2nd kill: IF it has been achieved anyway then it definitely wasn't by the mig shot down. All 4 missiles were recovered with seekers. Two of them were burnt but that is beside the point.

Bruised ego's at play perhaps.

madrat wrote:Yes, thread has ran its course and the topic haw been debated ad naseum in other threads.

If an R73 downed anyone that day it was only a MiG-21Bison hit. Otherwise, there is zero proof an R73 was even fired once.


:D Look at this doomy gloomy lot. I am not debating here for India or IAF. I refuse some sub standard PR campaign pull one over me specially looking back the credibility of Pakistan.

Super busy schedule. May reply by Sunday.


The way this forum works is based on facts and plausible speculations. Credibility is subjective and it has nothing to do with it. For many India is not credible. Perhaps for most it isnt after Feb 27 fiasco. So lets abide by the spirit of the debate and not make it sensational.
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Unread post19 Oct 2019, 17:39

If Mig-21 downed F-16 or JF-17 downed Su-30 then where are crash sites on satellite image?
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Unread post20 Oct 2019, 02:23

eloise wrote:If Mig-21 downed F-16 or JF-17 downed Su-30 then where are crash sites on satellite image?


Why need photo, locations where there is maths? The mathematical "proof" is that in any war, the home side will always shoot down equal or more more than the other side. In fact this is supported by a simultaneous equation that when one side downs an aircraft, the other will simultaneously offset this with a counter claim. This is clear physics based on newton's third law which applies in South Asia where for every claim, there is an opposite claim. Who can argue with maths?
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Unread post21 Oct 2019, 14:54

weasel1962 wrote:This is clear physics based on newton's third law which applies in South Asia where for every claim, there is an opposite claim. Who can argue with maths?

Laws of propagandynamics:
  • The first law, also known as Law of Conservation of "truth", states that "truth" cannot be created or destroyed in an isolated system.
  • The second law of propagandynamics states that the "facts" of any isolated system always increases.
  • The third law of propagandynamics states that the "facts" of a system approaches a constant value as the "truth" approaches absolute zero.

:mrgreen:
"Those who know don’t talk. Those who talk don’t know"
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Unread post13 Nov 2019, 02:28

I am not sure if a PAF F-16 was toast or not but there is plenty of disinformation on the claims here. Some clarifications:

- You maybe surprised but IAF actually did not claim a guaranteed F-16 hit. They claimed an F-16 hit was likely based on preponderance of evidence as they analyzed it. This includes sat images not available in public domains like those shot with SAR cameras. IAF has not recorded an F-16 hit anywhere.
- Pakistan Armed Forces meanwhile has claimed a guaranteed Su-30 MKI hit, which of course is laughable. They have also recorded a Su 30 hit.
- In South Asia, India is the engineering king. No other country can even remotely match India's industrial and engineering base including aeronautical engineering base (which is growing by orders of magnitude every year). Given this, I am pretty sure the IAF folks were completely aware of flight performance parameter envelopes and waves.
- India also has an advanced radar industry including encryption algorithms talent (Indians are good at math - several Indian mathematicians have won the Fields medal). So, it is always a surprise to me when someone says IAF used unencrypted transmissions when home grown expertise is fully available for effecting such techniques.
- Indians, as a society, are bad at communications for sure. This can be seen from their press conferences to how the controllers vectored IAF assets. There is a tendency to talk in obfuscating ways with inefficient jargon that more confuses than clarifies. IAF certainly has to improve its PR department by miles. But this does not mean India lacks aircraft engineering and design skills, and the ability to apply such skills to winning an air war against an adversary.
- People on this forum seem to think that PAF and IAF is on similar footing. That is an absurd assumption as IAF is backed by a huge industrial base with active collaboration with top defenses forces of the world - critical capabilities that PAF totally lacks. They also lack the ability to produce a homegrown plane like the HAL Tejas, demonstrating the technological leap India has over its adversaries in this part of the world.
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Unread post13 Nov 2019, 05:55

shoot_to_kill wrote:I am not sure if a PAF F-16 was toast or not but there is plenty of disinformation on the claims here. Some clarifications:

- You maybe surprised but IAF actually did not claim a guaranteed F-16 hit. They claimed an F-16 hit was likely based on preponderance of evidence as they analyzed it. This includes sat images not available in public domains like those shot with SAR cameras. IAF has not recorded an F-16 hit anywhere.
- Pakistan Armed Forces meanwhile has claimed a guaranteed Su-30 MKI hit, which of course is laughable. They have also recorded a Su 30 hit.
- In South Asia, India is the engineering king. No other country can even remotely match India's industrial and engineering base including aeronautical engineering base (which is growing by orders of magnitude every year). Given this, I am pretty sure the IAF folks were completely aware of flight performance parameter envelopes and waves.
- India also has an advanced radar industry including encryption algorithms talent (Indians are good at math - several Indian mathematicians have won the Fields medal). So, it is always a surprise to me when someone says IAF used unencrypted transmissions when home grown expertise is fully available for effecting such techniques.
- Indians, as a society, are bad at communications for sure. This can be seen from their press conferences to how the controllers vectored IAF assets. There is a tendency to talk in obfuscating ways with inefficient jargon that more confuses than clarifies. IAF certainly has to improve its PR department by miles. But this does not mean India lacks aircraft engineering and design skills, and the ability to apply such skills to winning an air war against an adversary.
- People on this forum seem to think that PAF and IAF is on similar footing. That is an absurd assumption as IAF is backed by a huge industrial base with active collaboration with top defenses forces of the world - critical capabilities that PAF totally lacks. They also lack the ability to produce a homegrown plane like the HAL Tejas, demonstrating the technological leap India has over its adversaries in this part of the world.


What a load of irrelevant crap.
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weasel1962

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Unread post13 Nov 2019, 11:36

6 pages, anyone Already 100% manure so what's a bit more crap?
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Unread post13 Nov 2019, 13:45

shoot_to_kill wrote:I am not sure if ... in this part of the world.


Let's put our hands together to welcome our first member/poster from La-la land :applause:
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shoot_to_kill

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Unread post13 Nov 2019, 23:39

airomerix wrote:
shoot_to_kill wrote:I am not sure if a PAF F-16 was toast or not but there is plenty of disinformation on the claims here. Some clarifications:

- You maybe surprised but IAF actually did not claim a guaranteed F-16 hit. They claimed an F-16 hit was likely based on preponderance of evidence as they analyzed it. This includes sat images not available in public domains like those shot with SAR cameras. IAF has not recorded an F-16 hit anywhere.
- Pakistan Armed Forces meanwhile has claimed a guaranteed Su-30 MKI hit, which of course is laughable. They have also recorded a Su 30 hit.
- In South Asia, India is the engineering king. No other country can even remotely match India's industrial and engineering base including aeronautical engineering base (which is growing by orders of magnitude every year). Given this, I am pretty sure the IAF folks were completely aware of flight performance parameter envelopes and waves.
- India also has an advanced radar industry including encryption algorithms talent (Indians are good at math - several Indian mathematicians have won the Fields medal). So, it is always a surprise to me when someone says IAF used unencrypted transmissions when home grown expertise is fully available for effecting such techniques.
- Indians, as a society, are bad at communications for sure. This can be seen from their press conferences to how the controllers vectored IAF assets. There is a tendency to talk in obfuscating ways with inefficient jargon that more confuses than clarifies. IAF certainly has to improve its PR department by miles. But this does not mean India lacks aircraft engineering and design skills, and the ability to apply such skills to winning an air war against an adversary.
- People on this forum seem to think that PAF and IAF is on similar footing. That is an absurd assumption as IAF is backed by a huge industrial base with active collaboration with top defenses forces of the world - critical capabilities that PAF totally lacks. They also lack the ability to produce a homegrown plane like the HAL Tejas, demonstrating the technological leap India has over its adversaries in this part of the world.


What a load of irrelevant crap.


What a load of arrogance by Pakistani posters. Indian aeronautical and industry complex is miles ahead of anything Pakistan has to offer. Indian companies build and have built critical parts for the ITER fusion reactor and TMT telescope - both projects running into billions of dollars in the world with only 5 countries invited to produce technology for them - India being one of them. Pakistan is a country which is unable to design and produce even a 2-stroke engine yet talk from their backsides as if they have an aeronautical superiority. Indian radars, weapons systems, and EW encryption algorithms are orders of magnitude superior to anything on Pakistani planes. And there is very little chance that a Pakistani F-16 can ever exhibit weapons,radar, tactics and early warning superiority over Indian planes.
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