PAF F-16 vs MiG-21 - New Evidence

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weasel1962

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Unread post16 Oct 2019, 01:09

garrya wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:So is it the R-77 or R-73?

If it was the R-73, what has the radar got to do with things?

AFAIK, it the R-73
Radar is used to get distance, closure rate and heading of the target so pilot know where the target is and whether he is in range.


So what was the mig-21 shot down by? A sidewinder or Amraam>?
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airomerix

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Unread post16 Oct 2019, 02:48

weasel1962 wrote:
garrya wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:So is it the R-77 or R-73?

If it was the R-73, what has the radar got to do with things?

AFAIK, it the R-73
Radar is used to get distance, closure rate and heading of the target so pilot know where the target is and whether he is in range.


So what was the mig-21 shot down by? A sidewinder or Amraam>?


An AMRAAM.
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weasel1962

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Unread post16 Oct 2019, 02:58

Great, so if the R-73 shoot down is validated, the Amraam engagement range would have to be that of the R-73. The alternative is that another F-16 (the one that was apparently shot down) was nearer to the Mig-21 than the other F-16 that shot it down in which case, the PAF is dumb enough to fly an F-16 in front of another when engaging an adversary.

Really makes me wonder why the Su-30mki couldn't do the same since the PAF F-16s were also firing Amraams at them.
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garrya

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Unread post16 Oct 2019, 04:23

weasel1962 wrote:Great, so if the R-73 shoot down is validated, the Amraam engagement range would have to be that of the R-73.

Actually worse, AMRAAM's head-on engagement range would have to be greater than R-77's head-on engagement range, but still shorter than the tail on engagement range of R-73.
weasel1962 wrote:Really makes me wonder why the Su-30mki couldn't do the same since the PAF F-16s were also firing Amraams at them.

Because even AIM-120A has significantly better range than R-77.
AIM-120AB.png

RVV-AE@.jpeg
Last edited by garrya on 16 Oct 2019, 04:28, edited 1 time in total.
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weasel1962

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Unread post16 Oct 2019, 04:25

Doesn't the Su-30mki also carry the R-73?
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garrya

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Unread post16 Oct 2019, 04:30

weasel1962 wrote:Doesn't the Su-30mki also carry the R-73?

It can, but R-73 has shorter range than R-77 hence the paradox.
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weasel1962

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Unread post16 Oct 2019, 04:36

So the PAF were firing Amraams at the Su-30mki outside their range of the Su-30mki's short ranged R-73 but within the short range of the R-73 of the Mig-21?
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garrya

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Unread post16 Oct 2019, 04:41

weasel1962 wrote:So the PAF were firing Amraams at the Su-30mki outside their range of the Su-30mki's short ranged R-73 but within the short range of the R-73 of the Mig-21?

Actually worse when we realize that missile's head-on range is greater than their tail on range.
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madrat

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Unread post16 Oct 2019, 05:37

I really thought this thread had no chance for a second page. Boy was I wrong.
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weasel1962

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Unread post16 Oct 2019, 06:51

A few more posts and we can even get up to page 5. Not bad for a work of fiction.
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notafanboy

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Unread post16 Oct 2019, 17:08

garrya wrote:
notafanboy wrote:
0B6F0223-43D3-4702-864E-5DFBA42BED3F.jpeg

To elaborate further, let examine your hypothesis of how proportional navigation increasing missile effective range in the photo below. The pure pursuit path is the same one as the flight path of target- the red curve. The short cut with proportional navigation is the green lines. Up to that point it is correct. Your wrong assumption is to assuming that the range shown on missile launch envelope diagram is the red curve. It isn't, because if it is , there would be no way for the pilot to know when he is in range to launch. Because his radar will only give him the value of the green lines.
306C1EF2-2DC7-40CB-B776-81633FDDB66C.png


Effect of proportional navigation will be more profound in WVR or SRAAMs because that's where angle will vary the most. In BVR scenario, yes the missile will fly upwards but that's usually not the SOP that pilots are trained to do ideally. They would rather position their a/c much above the altitude of bogey so that they get max range and KE as additional bonus before lobbing BVRs.

I am assuming the Red curve is straight line in head-on and tail chase parameters of missile without proportional navigation because that will define true linear range. But it's an off-boresight launch using HMS so pilot does know range.
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notafanboy

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Unread post16 Oct 2019, 17:25

garrya wrote:If they think the small chutes/drogue attached to the ejection seat is another pilot then that is very possible mistake to make


I am not basing eyewitness accounts only on what they saw in sky but what they saw on ground and that is two pilots. Eyewitnesses even described second pilot as a Sikh which clearly mig 21 pilot was not. Sikh mean a guy with turban and beard.

garrya wrote:IMHO, their F-16 should know if Mig-21 breached BARCAP because there are 3 of them very close together. If Mig-21 can detect and lock one F-16 from tail aspect then others F-16 should be able to detect and lock that Mig-21 from head on aspect. That not only because APG-68v9 is a better radar set than Kopyo but also because a closing target stand out better from side lobes clutter than a retreating target. It is also important to note that while Pakistan F-16 are not equipped with MWS, they are equipped with RWR and Mig-21 doesn't have an IRST. Besides, according to the Indian Mig-21 pilot, he used radar to lock on to the F-16, thus in any case they should got a fair amount of alert.


Mig 21 Bison or Mig21 type 93 is equipped with IRST from Russia's URALs optical-mechanical plant. AFAIK, the standard practice in IAF using Mig21 for kills is to switch off radar, guided by data-link and switch on ELTA 8222 pod for getting near to bogey and getting kill using R-73. Kashmir valley is a bowl and Mig 21 suddenly emerged from behind the mountains at 15k feet and that's where F-16 failed to detect. Since Mig21 never used its RADAR, there is no question of RWR going off.

For more, read about cope India 2004 where USAF F-15s faced exact same tactic applied by IAF against them scoring multiple kills.
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basher54321

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Unread post16 Oct 2019, 19:15

notafanboy wrote:Mig 21 Bison or Mig21 type 93 is equipped with IRST from Russia's URALs optical-mechanical plant.



What are you basing that on? - an IRST sensor should be easy to see externally although would expect to see it pod mounted on a MiG-21.

Not aware anything has been identified as a Jamming pod from the wreckage thus far although there was a drop tank in the photos.

You would expect he has to ID before firing thus you could assume that an onboard data link would be the only way he could fire at the range shown in the IAF radar tracks. However he obviously didn't have the full picture because as it is presented he was way too close to the PAF fighters.

The blog that started off this thread makes out several times Varthaman was using radar as if for certain but yes it is not for certain currently - I don't know if Varthamen stated so himself or if that has just been more media fluff.
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weasel1962

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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 01:37

So now the story is that the mig-21 managed to emerge from the mountain undetected by the F-16 but get shot down by an Amraam fired from..... ?
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jedit

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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 03:32

weasel1962 wrote:Great, so if the R-73 shoot down is validated, the Amraam engagement range would have to be that of the R-73. The alternative is that another F-16 (the one that was apparently shot down) was nearer to the Mig-21 than the other F-16 that shot it down in which case, the PAF is dumb enough to fly an F-16 in front of another when engaging an adversary.
Really makes me wonder why the Su-30mki couldn't do the same since the PAF F-16s were also firing Amraams at them.


If it hasn't been validated in close to 8 months, chances seem remote now. Even IAF officials have now virtually given up after realizing that its hard to prove they shot a jet. Retiring IAF chief confirmed he doesn't have (irrefutable) evidence.

weasel1962 wrote:So the PAF were firing Amraams at the Su-30mki outside their range of the Su-30mki's short ranged R-73 but within the short range of the R-73 of the Mig-21?


No confirmed reports on that. IAF showing AMRAAM shrapnel led to everyone associating AMRAAM with events of the day and it seems now everyone assumes only AMRAAM was used in the skirmish.

weasel1962 wrote:A few more posts and we can even get up to page 5. Not bad for a work of fiction.


Of course.

notafanboy wrote:In BVR scenario, yes the missile will fly upwards but that's usually not the SOP that pilots are trained to do ideally. They would rather position their a/c much above the altitude of bogey so that they get max range and KE as additional bonus before lobbing BVRs.

Kashmir valley is a bowl and Mig 21 suddenly emerged from behind the mountains at 15k feet and that's where F-16 failed to detect.



Talking of height advantage, SOP of pilots and (the theory IAF fans now present everywhere) regarding Mig 21 sneaking up from mountain cover at 15k feet, what would stop the F16 pilots (allegedly 8 from a total strike package of 24 PAF jets) from using that same SOP that day?
Let me rephrase it. What drug would influence F16 pilots to ditch this SOP suggested by you. Since PAF used the same mountains to sneak 24 jets right atop the Indian air space in the first place, they must have surely known the potential hazard presented by the mountains so height would have been their only deterrent.
All evidence or lack thereof suggests no F16 was shot. I fail to understand why IAF fans keep pushing the same circumstantial and fringe info, already shot down by experts as proof, in increasing number of posts.

Mig 21 Bison or Mig21 type 93 is equipped with IRST from Russia's URALs optical-mechanical plant. AFAIK, the standard practice in IAF using Mig21 for kills is to switch off radar, guided by data-link and switch on ELTA 8222 pod for getting near to bogey and getting kill using R-73.

Since Mig21 never used its RADAR, there is no question of RWR going off.


IAF had no jets near Abhinandan from all accounts, he was the lone warrior that ventured into Pakistani air space. So without any other jets or AWACS to piggy back radar info off of, he only had the Ground radar. Ground radar officer Minty Agarwal (since awarded national medal for her heroics that day) claimed she was managing the entire IAF defense that day and vectoring jets. She in the same interview claimed she didn't know whether Abhinandan heard her or not. How do you think that links with your assertion that Mig 21 had radar off and was using data link when his own radar officer doesn't know whether he could hear her or not.

For more, read about cope India 2004 where USAF F-15s faced exact same tactic applied by IAF against them scoring multiple kills.

Cope India in 2004 was an 'exercise' without BVR engagements held between USAF and IAF 15 years ago, 27th Feb skirmish between PAF and IAF where there were no such limitations and PAF of course used BVRs. This pushes me to link the video from 4 years after Cope India where a USAF officer suggests IAF had a lot of fratricide because they manually inquired about friendly or foe from AWACS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DycGbEjcHTY

Remember IAF lost a Mi17 to fratricide on 27th Feb. Sigh.

notafanboy wrote:I am not basing eyewitness accounts only on what they saw in sky but what they saw on ground and that is two pilots. Eyewitnesses even described second pilot as a Sikh which clearly mig 21 pilot was not. Sikh mean a guy with turban and beard.


I cannot even fathom the heights of fantasy fiction that led to this theory. IAF couldn't provide shoot down video, pictures or video of wreckage, tail number, pilot name of a F16, and here conspiracy theorists are not just assuming an F16 was shot, but that the pilot had a beard and looked like a Sikh because some 80yo civilian was put on the spotlight by an eager camera crew. People have claimed seeing UFOs, Sea monsters and aliens when put in the spotlight like that. Some completely normal people swore that jet hitting WTC had no windows, others said jet liner had a huge bomb strapped under it. Some claimed they heard explosions before jets struck WTC on 9/11, while others said they heard explosions similar to demolition work after jets struck. Some said no jet ever hit Pentagon and they were all eye witnesses as well.
It is the height of desperation when you start entertaining accounts like that as there is no other credible evidence of a F16 going down.

garrya wrote:IMHO, their F-16 should know if Mig-21 breached BARCAP because there are 3 of them very close together. If Mig-21 can detect and lock one F-16 from tail aspect then others F-16 should be able to detect and lock that Mig-21 from head on aspect. That not only because APG-68v9 is a better radar set than Kopyo but also because a closing target stand out better from side lobes clutter than a retreating target. It is also important to note that while Pakistan F-16 are not equipped with MWS, they are equipped with RWR and Mig-21 doesn't have an IRST. Besides, according to the Indian Mig-21 pilot, he used radar to lock on to the F-16, thus in any case they should got a fair amount of alert.


Fairly logical, just that Indian pilot didn't claim anything officially. Allegedly there were 8 F16s and a total of 24 jets and India had the lone brave hero in a Mig 21. Of course Indians believe the single vintage Mig 21 was able to shoot down the F16, don't the odds clearly suggest this!

basher54321 wrote:You would expect he has to ID before firing thus you could assume that an onboard data link would be the only way he could fire at the range shown in the IAF radar tracks. However he obviously didn't have the full picture because as it is presented he was way too close to the PAF fighters.
The blog that started off this thread makes out several times Varthaman was using radar as if for certain but yes it is not for certain currently - I don't know if Varthamen stated so himself or if that has just been more media fluff.


He only said 'i was looking for targets when PAF shot me down' while being captured but there was no other detail. You can judge yourself where this information is coming from.
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