PAF F-16 vs MiG-21 - New Evidence

Feel free to discuss anything here - as long as it is F-16 related.
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Unread post18 Nov 2019, 22:06

Well... the bird is dead. Wont tell his part of the story. If Pakis have anything to do with that unfortunate occurance Indians should aleready took off with press conference showing the bird's parts with pakistan inscriptions on it. The fact it didnt happened may led to a conclusion that the bird was of Indian nationality and (hold your tea....) was a pakistan agenet that successfuly inflitrated into the Indian army and remained low key until the dooms day. If I were Indians I wouldnt brag about that too much
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weasel1962

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Unread post19 Nov 2019, 02:04

There is "proof" of a Pakistani bird conspiracy...the terrorists have been training for years.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... stody.html

Judging by the thread, this should more than meet the standard of "proof".
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jedit

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Unread post21 Nov 2019, 00:17

Revisiting the thread after staying away for a few weeks, I have learnt new ways of ascertaining truth in an argument by looking at unrelated numbers like R&D spending, GDP, ability or lack thereof to make 2 stroke bike engines among other things. :bang:
I would not bet against a new ID starting another strafing run on basic logic and grounds of law of evidence in this thread in the future!
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Unread post16 Dec 2019, 14:20

In accordance with the title of that thread.
Goodbye indian pro (not so much pro though) paganda :doh: :bang: I think it deserves a Brand New word: lameaganda (lame agenda?) ;)


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airomerix

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Unread post17 Dec 2019, 05:12

So much for Indian medials. Poster boys. Viper slayer patches, AMRAAM dodger patches and BS Dhnao BS'ing across the world.

As a military enthusiast, I'm actually sad to see the reputation of an Air Force tarnish for political gains.

This gives additional plausibility to a flanker going down. Warrants a debate.
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marsavian

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Unread post17 Dec 2019, 05:24

US reprimands Pakistan for misusing F-16 fighter jets: Report

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.usnews ... ontext=amp

Addressed to the head of the Pakistani air force, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, the letter began by relaying the State Department's confirmation that Pakistan had moved the F-16s and accompanying American-made missiles to unapproved forward operating bases in defiance of its agreement with the U.S. Using diplomatic language, Thompson, who has since left government, warned the Pakistanis that their behavior risked allowing these weapons to fall into the hands of malign actors and "could undermine our shared security platforms and infrastructures."
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jedit

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Unread post25 Dec 2019, 20:57

marsavian wrote:US reprimands Pakistan for misusing F-16 fighter jets: Report

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.usnews ... ontext=amp

Addressed to the head of the Pakistani air force, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, the letter began by relaying the State Department's confirmation that Pakistan had moved the F-16s and accompanying American-made missiles to unapproved forward operating bases in defiance of its agreement with the U.S. Using diplomatic language, Thompson, who has since left government, warned the Pakistanis that their behavior risked allowing these weapons to fall into the hands of malign actors and "could undermine our shared security platforms and infrastructures."


The fact that Pakistan used F16s is not even contentious, PAF credited (F16) pilots for the operation months later. Most analysts agree that Pakistan Army's spokesman used wordplay to say F16s were not used at the time to ensure they did not openly brag about breaking terms of agreement with the US. One thing is breaking some agreement and another is bragging about it publicly. It is however debatable whether the terms of agreement were broken since Pakistan actually did not use F16s offensively. It was always known that India would go complain to the US in a meager attempt to gain some traction against Pakistan. Also, PAF always claimed their jets did not cross the Line of Control and Indians Air Chief later corrected the original Indian stance to say that PAF indeed did not cross.
Indian side has always doubted Foreign Policy's article that suggested US has done an inventory of the F16s PAF has to find none missing. However, they now peddle this uncorroborated story to support their argument. This does not fly!

1- PAF used older Mirages offensively to land SOWs on the Indian side that day. They can legitimately say F16s were not used (for dropping the weapons) which was the actual operation.
2- PAF did use F16s for BARCAP which should not violate any agreement if anyone with 2 working neurons wrote and signed off on the agreement between US and Pakistan.
3-Mig 21 that was allegedly shot down by either an F16 or JF17 along with its pilot was found in Pakistani controlled territory which would vindicate PAF stance about eventual use of F16. If PAF couldn't fly F16s offensively, nor or use it to defend against an Indian jet that has ingressed into Pakistani territory, what good is an F16 then?

To summarize, the reprimand essentially means nothing. Either it didn't happen, or it was just a formality with a wink :wink: :wink: wink exchanged between PAF and US to say we satisfied Indian concerns by talking to Pakistan. Also, US has since the operation allocated $125 million dollars to extend support for US ground staff monitoring the F16s held by PAF. If US is willing to spend that amount just to stop Chinese hands from ever touching F16s in Pakistan, any reprimand would eventually be that ... a formality and nothing substantive!
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weasel1962

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Unread post30 Dec 2019, 02:49

Was there really a reprimand? Link to an official announcement pls (not fakenews sites).
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jedit

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Unread post30 Dec 2019, 10:02

weasel1962 wrote:Was there really a reprimand? Link to an official announcement pls (not fakenews sites).


As I mentioned in my last post, it either didn't happen or it was just a slap on the wrist followed by a wink exchange. There of course is no official documentation. So much conjecture has been peddled across related to the F16 shoot down claim that it's not even funny, its sad and one can only pity the side that has to resort to such things to try to redeem some pride.
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Unread post06 Jan 2020, 21:04

airomerix wrote:So much for Indian medials. Poster boys. Viper slayer patches, AMRAAM dodger patches and BS Dhnao BS'ing across the world.

As a military enthusiast, I'm actually sad to see the reputation of an Air Force tarnish for political gains.

This gives additional plausibility to a flanker going down. Warrants a debate.

The fact that both Su-30 MKIs and both Mirage 2000s managed to exfiltrate with zero losses despite being outnumbered 6:1 by 12 F-16s and 12 JF-17 is a massive achievement.
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weasel1962

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Unread post07 Jan 2020, 07:50

Getting outnumbered by the PAF whilst the IAF is double the size of the PAF is certainly a "massive achievement". Most commanders in other forces would probably get replaced if they achieved the same "massive achievement".
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airomerix

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Unread post07 Jan 2020, 14:55

weasel1962 wrote:Getting outnumbered by the PAF whilst the IAF is double the size of the PAF is certainly a "massive achievement". Most commanders in other forces would probably get replaced if they achieved the same "massive achievement".


Not to mention, this comes after a sham strike on 26th. The IAF should have been on alert on western borders anyway. Getting outnumbered comes off as a result of poor tactical planning and gross incompetence at the command level.
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warbird86

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Unread post07 Jan 2020, 17:08

weasel1962 wrote:Getting outnumbered by the PAF whilst the IAF is double the size of the PAF is certainly a "massive achievement". Most commanders in other forces would probably get replaced if they achieved the same "massive achievement".

It is not fault of IAF.
But higher command who gave orders to stand down as Pak establishment narrative was focused on 'No casualties' at the madrassa camp that was targeted which led to Indian high command believing there will not be any retaliatory strike.
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Unread post09 Jan 2020, 22:37

weasel1962 wrote:Getting outnumbered by the PAF whilst the IAF is double the size of the PAF is certainly a "massive achievement". Most commanders in other forces would probably get replaced if they achieved the same "massive achievement".


Totally, and there is still the retirement of the top officer of the western command (that dealt with the Pakistani side of operations) exactly a day after the Pakistani retaliation i.e. Feb 28.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrash ... Hari_Kumar

He may have hit his retirement age as Indians have plead as there is no evidence in public that he was sacked but role change at the top did happen right after the Pakistani retaliatory strike/s. There are 3 events that could individually and especially collectively give IAF reason enough to let him go.

1- The fact that PAF successfully landed ordnance less than 24 hours after promising a retaliation and less than 30 hours after IAF strikes suggesting IAF was caught unprepared.
2- The fact that PAF shot down a Mig21 in Pakistani controlled territory after IAF claimed PAF did not cross over to the Indian controlled side.
3- The tragic fratricide of Mi17 by IAF far away from the border resulting in 7 poor souls losing their lives.

warbird86 wrote:It is not fault of IAF.
But higher command who gave orders to stand down as Pak establishment narrative was focused on 'No casualties' at the madrassa camp that was targeted which led to Indian high command believing there will not be any retaliatory strike.


1- Can you provide some more details or evidence to support your theory.

2- IAF could not possibly have stood down less than 24 hours of the Pakistan military spokesman promised a retaliatory strike regardless of what higher command said. If it's not the fault of IAF directly, it's their fault indirectly for not being able to convince the MoD (or whatever authority told them to stand down) otherwise. If powers that be at the helm of defense in India are this naive as to project Pakistan's stance into a wish to not retaliate while ignoring direct threats from the Spokesman of the Pakistan Military, then it doesn't bode well for them.

3- Both IAF and PAF have the rare consensus that PAF did not cross over but used stand-off weapons to land ordnance on Indian military targets, yet IAF Mig21 crossed over into Pakistani controlled territory to get shot. This aggressive but futile move does not really support your stand down theory.
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Unread post10 Jan 2020, 17:27

jedit wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:Getting outnumbered by the PAF whilst the IAF is double the size of the PAF is certainly a "massive achievement". Most commanders in other forces would probably get replaced if they achieved the same "massive achievement".


Totally, and there is still the retirement of the top officer of the western command (that dealt with the Pakistani side of operations) exactly a day after the Pakistani retaliation i.e. Feb 28.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrash ... Hari_Kumar

He may have hit his retirement age as Indians have plead as there is no evidence in public that he was sacked but role change at the top did happen right after the Pakistani retaliatory strike/s. There are 3 events that could individually and especially collectively give IAF reason enough to let him go.

1- The fact that PAF successfully landed ordnance less than 24 hours after promising a retaliation and less than 30 hours after IAF strikes suggesting IAF was caught unprepared.
2- The fact that PAF shot down a Mig21 in Pakistani controlled territory after IAF claimed PAF did not cross over to the Indian controlled side.
3- The tragic fratricide of Mi17 by IAF far away from the border resulting in 7 poor souls losing their lives.

warbird86 wrote:It is not fault of IAF.
But higher command who gave orders to stand down as Pak establishment narrative was focused on 'No casualties' at the madrassa camp that was targeted which led to Indian high command believing there will not be any retaliatory strike.


1- Can you provide some more details or evidence to support your theory.

The fact that IAF reduced CAPs over J&K to 4 aircraft at 1000 hrs from 12 aircraft at 0200 hrs.

IAF could not possibly have stood down less than 24 hours of the Pakistan military spokesman promised a retaliatory strike regardless of what higher command said. If it's not the fault of IAF directly, it's their fault indirectly for not being able to convince the MoD (or whatever authority told them to stand down) otherwise. If powers that be at the helm of defense in India are this naive as to project Pakistan's stance into a wish to not retaliate while ignoring direct threats from the Spokesman of the Pakistan Military, then it doesn't bode well for them.


Both IAF and PAF have the rare consensus that PAF did not cross over but used stand-off weapons to land ordnance on Indian military targets, yet IAF Mig21 crossed over into Pakistani controlled territory to get shot. This aggressive but futile move does not really support your stand down theory.

That was fault of the pilot Abhinandan for not abiding the controller (perhaps due to jamming).
Other three MiG-21 in his formation all abided.
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