Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2019, 07:49
by orkss
:D :D

Image

Meet the F-21. Specifically configured for the Indian Air Force, the F-21 provides unmatched ‘Make in India’ opportunities and strengthens India’s path to an advanced airpower future.

The F-21 addresses the Indian Air Force’s unique requirements and integrates India into the world’s largest fighter aircraft ecosystem with the world’s pre-eminent defence company. Lockheed Martin and Tata would produce the F-21 in India, for India.
...




Just marketing, as far as I can see.
I could not yet see the differences with Block 70.

More:
https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/f-21.html
https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/ ... 20Card.pdf

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2019, 08:48
by element1loop
F-21 ... almost an F-22 ...

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2019, 13:29
by basher54321
So somewhere between an F-20 and F-22 ;)


There are a few differences - first single place F-16 I have seen with a dorsal avionics spine.

The massive touchscreen monitor that totally changes the cockpit.

The refueling probe is unique but was tested on a block 60 many years back Iirc

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2019, 14:05
by popcorn
This is interesting. It appears the US will retain somd F-16 production capability. prudent move IMO.

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2019/ ... e-f21.html

Lockheed Martin had previously said an F-16 contract with the Indian Air Force would make India a key hub for the fighter's production and export. However, the company in 2018 announced that F-16 would still be built in South Carolina as another plant in Fort Worth, Texas, transitioned to building the F-35 stealth fighter.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2019, 15:02
by Patriot
basher54321 wrote: first single place F-16 I have seen with a dorsal avionics spine.


I noticed that too.
Although on two-seater that spine looks quite fine... here it DESTROYS Viper uniqe line. I know they had to cramp additional hardware somewhere that make the F-16 5 digits more capable ;) (F-21) lol but it's a total desecration and profanity done to a holly grail of fighterpilotnees

Id only wish that LockMart made GE-132 avilable for other customers as well within F-16V package.

So, maybe USAF should consider F-21 too if they already made green light for a "Super Eagle". Super Viper deserves it too!

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2019, 15:12
by mixelflick
I hope for their sake they make the right decision, albeit I have to admit I'm not sure what that is (given their requirements).

Their logistics chain is going to be a nightmare, unless they buy more Rafale's. None of the contenders will give them an edge over Chinese J-20's, or her recently acquired SU-35's. Tejas? LOL. Well, they can't do any worse than Canada picking up 80's retro F-18's.

If I was them, I'd go all in for Rafale's. Not stealth, but great swing capability, weapons and sensors. Possible it could even replace Mig-29k's on her carrier. I'd love to see them get the F-35, but that's not happening...

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2019, 15:37
by Patriot
mixelflick wrote:None of the contenders will give them an edge over Chinese J-20's, or her recently acquired SU-35's.


Quite far fetched assumption. Su-35 RCS is still the size of a barn and F-21 sensors and crew SA would be outstanding + AMRAAM family has its reputation arround air forces that once found themselves on the recieving end of its employment and were forced to write off some equipment in the aftermath. I think Su-35 pilot has a lot more reasons to fear Super Viper than vice versa.
We know nothing about J-20 stealthyness apart it has weapon bays and is bigger and heavier than the Raptor.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2019, 16:05
by popcorn
Almost certainly a fleet of 114 X F-21s will be more affordable to buy and operate than a similar number of Rafales.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2019, 16:44
by Patriot
Bottom line is, from the potential foe point of view it's actually irrelevant what they gonna buy.
Giving current and lasting attrition rate IAF has anything if it's more advanced than a bicycle in the hands of these sloppy people will be turned into scrap within a few years.
Those new 100 fighters should last for (5) years, maybe

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2019, 17:28
by Patriot
basher54321 wrote:First single place F-16 I have seen with a dorsal avionics spine.


I knew Ive seen dorsal spine on a single seater before somewhere, despite it's less bulky from the one in " F-21 " . The AFTI #75-0750

Image

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2019, 19:19
by basher54321
Ah yes the AFTI!

Still they wont be knocking the extras like the 6 or so extra decoy dispensers some of the spined Ds have.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2019, 21:16
by strykerxo

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2019, 21:37
by Patriot
strykerxo

So? All F-16D's block 50+ and 52+ and its customizations as israeli Sufa have a dorsal spine in common.
The thing is until today there were no single seat F-16 (A, C or E) with such a feature except an experimental AFTI.

I wonder if Indians wont chose "F-21" does Lockheed pretend F-21 never was or will they propose it to other potential customers as well or they just settle with modest ;) F-16V b70/72 ?

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 21 Feb 2019, 01:01
by weasel1962
The recent CAG report on the rafale is illuminating. The reason why the F-16 was rejected in the 1st round was embargo risk. imho, inconsistent since the Tejas uses an American engine so the risks are already inherent in any project. The line shift to India reduces that risk. The re-designation is really to address the other issue that the F-16 is used by the Pakistanis. Now no one else uses the F-21.

The F-21 is the cheapest, most value for money option. It can provide a quick re-capitalisation with 2nd hand F-16s or newbuilds. It can move to the F-35 which presents the most mature and cost effective growth option. It continues to integrate new technologies developed including for the F-35. The AESA is fantastic. The EW is fantastic. The munitions are combat proven and cost-effective. The F-16s will fly with the USAF until 2044 at least, providing a continued supplier support base for the next 25 years or more. I think LM has done a good job repackaging the F-16.

However none of these matter if attitudes and mindsets in India on the part of the decision makers don't change. That and the likelihood that half the fleet will eventually crash after India's induction.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 21 Feb 2019, 02:21
by crosshairs
weasel1962 wrote:The recent CAG report on the rafale is illuminating. The reason why the F-16 was rejected in the 1st round was embargo risk. imho, inconsistent since the Tejas uses an American engine so the risks are already inherent in any project. The line shift to India reduces that risk. The re-designation is really to address the other issue that the F-16 is used by the Pakistanis. Now no one else uses the F-21.

The F-21 is the cheapest, most value for money option. It can provide a quick re-capitalisation with 2nd hand F-16s or newbuilds. It can move to the F-35 which presents the most mature and cost effective growth option. It continues to integrate new technologies developed including for the F-35. The AESA is fantastic. The EW is fantastic. The munitions are combat proven and cost-effective. The F-16s will fly with the USAF until 2044 at least, providing a continued supplier support base for the next 25 years or more. I think LM has done a good job repackaging the F-16.

However none of these matter if attitudes and mindsets in India on the part of the decision makers don't change. That and the likelihood that half the fleet will eventually crash after India's induction.


The USAF is keeping the F-16 through 2044? As what, radar decoys?

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 21 Feb 2019, 02:39
by weasel1962
crosshairs wrote:The USAF is keeping the F-16 through 2044? As what, radar decoys?


As reserve/ANG sqns until the final F-35 goes off the production line in 2046 (last order 2044). btw SLEP is actually extending the F-16 service life until 2048. Its just a sign of how many squadrons that require replacement, the scale of the recapitalisation and how important the F-35 is to the USAF.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 21 Feb 2019, 05:21
by Corsair1963
weasel1962 wrote:The recent CAG report on the rafale is illuminating. The reason why the F-16 was rejected in the 1st round was embargo risk. imho, inconsistent since the Tejas uses an American engine so the risks are already inherent in any project. The line shift to India reduces that risk. The re-designation is really to address the other issue that the F-16 is used by the Pakistanis. Now no one else uses the F-21.

The F-21 is the cheapest, most value for money option. It can provide a quick re-capitalisation with 2nd hand F-16s or newbuilds. It can move to the F-35 which presents the most mature and cost effective growth option. It continues to integrate new technologies developed including for the F-35. The AESA is fantastic. The EW is fantastic. The munitions are combat proven and cost-effective. The F-16s will fly with the USAF until 2044 at least, providing a continued supplier support base for the next 25 years or more. I think LM has done a good job repackaging the F-16.

However none of these matter if attitudes and mindsets in India on the part of the decision makers don't change. That and the likelihood that half the fleet will eventually crash after India's induction.



Well, said.......Honestly, I believe the odds are very good. That India will in fact acquire the F-21. (i.e. F-16 Blk 70)

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 22 Feb 2019, 14:25
by That_Engine_Guy
Has anyone mentioned the fact F-21 has already been issued for the US DOD?

"Between 1985 and 1989, the United States Navy and United States Marine Corps leased 25 examples of the Kfir C.1, which were officially designated F-21A Lion and modified for use as unarmed adversaries: mock opponents in dissimilar air combat training (DACT)."

Ironically it was replaced by the F-16N...

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2019, 08:42
by weasel1962
No issue as the LM F-21 won't be used by the USAF. The designation in the USAF would be F-16.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2019, 14:14
by mixelflick
weasel1962 wrote:No issue as the LM F-21 won't be used by the USAF. The designation in the USAF would be F-16.


If I'm not mistaken, USAF F-16's are (finally) getting an AESA. Is that all F-16's though, or just a select few??

And I'd second the suggestion they get the GE 132 engine. Dumb question though: If the F-35 is replacing the F-16, why fund the upgrades? Is it simply a case of us not being able to re-capitalize the force fast enough?

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2019, 16:39
by basher54321
USAF F-16s potentially might be operating beyond 2048 (as per recent SLEP ) so better upgrade them with something even if just fricking laser beams. I don't expect to see any GE-132s though.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2019, 17:34
by Scorpion1alpha
Why not? Every Viper pilot would drool to have that LAD. And I've always wished I had 8 AMRAAMs like an Eagle...

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2019, 18:10
by madrat
No Agile Falcon (F-2A) wing? That would be pretty nifty and visibly different. And maybe you call it F-2.1 (two dot one) at that point. The F-2A wing can carry significantly larger loads than F-16 on the pylons, too.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 24 Feb 2019, 10:00
by milosh
What radar will "F-21" have? Upgraded APG-83 or default version? I really doubt they will offer default one becuase that would be stupid move when Boeing offers F-18E/F with APG-79.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 24 Feb 2019, 14:58
by madrat
Will F-21 have RCS reduction?

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 24 Feb 2019, 15:31
by weasel1962
If they apply have glass 5, then "yes" to RCS reduction.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 24 Feb 2019, 15:49
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Not beyond Have Glass I imagine.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 24 Feb 2019, 15:57
by basher54321
AN/APG-83 Radar is what has been offered.

Called "Uniform HaveGlass" - supposed to be more maintenance friendly.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 24 Feb 2019, 16:34
by Patriot
Whats the difference between Have Glass II and V ?

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 24 Feb 2019, 20:01
by southernphantom
Scorpion1alpha wrote:Why not? Every Viper pilot would drool to have that LAD. And I've always wished I had 8 AMRAAMs like an Eagle...


I understood that reference :cheers:

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 25 Feb 2019, 14:31
by Scorpion1alpha
southernphantom wrote:
Scorpion1alpha wrote:Why not? Every Viper pilot would drool to have that LAD. And I've always wished I had 8 AMRAAMs like an Eagle...


I understood that reference :cheers:


Hehe... :cheers:

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 25 Feb 2019, 14:33
by Scorpion1alpha
Pardon while I drool a little more over this part of the Viper...
Image

And a little over this...
Image

Because in the Viper world, this could be considered porn.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 25 Feb 2019, 16:26
by weasel1962
Scorpion1alpha wrote:
southernphantom wrote:
Scorpion1alpha wrote:Why not? Every Viper pilot would drool to have that LAD. And I've always wished I had 8 AMRAAMs like an Eagle...


I understood that reference :cheers:


Hehe... :cheers:


That'd be illegal.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 25 Feb 2019, 16:56
by sprstdlyscottsmn
It would be like I hadn't seen my wife in months.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 25 Feb 2019, 19:11
by basher54321
8 Missiles pah!

F-21 with16 AA Missiles.JPG

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 25 Feb 2019, 22:58
by Patriot
A solid sixteen reasons to consider F-16 I mean 21! :devil:

Btw, all CFT capable airframes should have stations 4/6 weaponized I think.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 25 Feb 2019, 23:07
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Patriot wrote: Btw, all CFT capable airframes should have stations 4/6 weaponized I think.

I assume you mean for A-A. They are weaponized for A-G.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 26 Feb 2019, 02:44
by Patriot
Yeah. I meant for AAMs and the entire spectrum of a2g... like say can you attach there a JSOW or JASSM too? Long time ago Ive heard somewhere 4/6 are fuel only and that these stations actually lack the wiring neccessery to support the weapon usage and I quite believed it but then I stumbled on images like that:

Image
http://www.zoom.mon.gov.pl/galerie/szac ... ad-alaska/

Taken at Red Flag Alaska in 2o12. As pilots said taking off with four 2ooo pounds bombs is defo an experience that adds up to a "pucker factor" quite well ;)

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 26 Feb 2019, 08:14
by basher54321
The reference is for USAF F-16s mostly where only 3/7 was wired with a modern interface for jdam/wcmd/jsow / etc - other users may vary.


Even on there though 4/6 have never been fuel only so they should still be able to carry GP and LGBs same as that Polish F-16.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 26 Feb 2019, 14:41
by Scorpion1alpha
weasel1962 wrote:That'd be illegal.


Ooh...Touche!

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 26 Feb 2019, 14:43
by Scorpion1alpha
basher54321 wrote:8 Missiles pah!

Image


:shock:
Are you trying to get me EXCITED?!?

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 01:34
by weasel1962
I suspect the fracas between India and Pakistan may signal the death knell for US fighters particularly the F-16...*cough* F-21.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 03:11
by Corsair1963
weasel1962 wrote:I suspect the fracas between India and Pakistan may signal the death knell for US fighters particularly the F-16...*cough* F-21.



I would agree if a "Pakistani" F-16 was indeed shot down??? They claim it wasn't.... :|

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 13:51
by madrat
So far there is zero proof IAF downed anything but two light drones.

And F-21 is going to be equivalent to the Rafale version they purchased, so if anything it may move up an order if they were to panic.

Image

The big wing of Agile Falcon IMHO would be a great selling point. Could even bridge LockMart involvement in AMCA and any potential FGPA replacement.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 00:32
by rheonomic
Too much work to re-wing it, not enough reward.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 21:31
by marsavian
One benefit of using new F-16 technology for India would be that LMT would know exactly how to jam old F-16 technology ;). Throw in a US AESA ban for Pakistan F-16 and this proposal might fly especially if you give them export options too.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 03:13
by weasel1962
The claims that the Mig-21 has shot down an F-16, even if untrue, has already cemented minds and perceptions at least on the Indian side, that the F-16 cannot perform. To acknowledge that that is incorrect would be for the Indians to acknowledge that they have engaged in propaganda or media manipulation. Imagine if the Indians do announce an F-21 deal today, that's going to be a media and public outcry why they are buying a plane that got shot down by the plane that it is replacing...Not going to happen.

Also, there's going to be a backlash how come the US didn't do more to stop Pakistan from using their F-16s. That helps because the argument is that the US won't stop the Indians either. But people will focus on the negatives rather than the positives. On the flip side, we see AIM-120s fired at Indian aircraft. The Indian Government stance has painted the MRCA into a corner. The only hope for Americans is that the MRCA decision gets delayed and people forget after a longer period of time.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 13:23
by Patriot
Nothing here is accidental.
If Indians really shoot down the Viper they'd present an evidence long ago and the discussion would be over. Speculations have no chance of survieing in the face of evidence UNLESS the point is to keep speculations going.
A new Myth is about to be born. Maybe a new religion. Bisonism. A holly MiG-21 defeated a snake of Devil.

Surely it make LM trying more to win the contract
What not to like about that? ;) (from the Indian point of view...)

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 06:19
by weasel1962
No amount of "trying" will help when the customer regards the product as "snake of devil".

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 12:51
by Patriot
Duno man. Id rather like to have snake of devil on my side than have it as an enemy

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 14:45
by madrat
The F-16 story screams of deflection and misdirection to cover-up something of an embarrassment. I cannot fully digest this IAF pilot digressing Su-30MKI to MiG-21 choice. As a member of his cast he had big political ties. He's equivalent to John McCain being a POW during Vietnam.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 22:26
by icemaverick
What cast is he? What political ties did he have? Are you saying he wasn’t flying a MiG-21? Because the wreckage clearly seems to show a MiG-21. I’d assume just like the USAF, IAF pilots do tours in different aircraft. Some pilots go from flying F-16s to drones. It’s not inconceivable that a pilot could from a better platform to a lesser one.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 05:54
by madrat
That's pure speculation on my part that his moving to the Bison doesn't make practical sense. He went from flying the pride of the IAF to flying the dinosaur. The guy isn't some blue collar hick that found himself in a job of flying airplanes. The role of a pilot is very prestigious, but what aircraft he flies also bears a strong relationship to his family's political ties. The guy didn't get an A to B drop, he went more like an A to a D.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 16:06
by icemaverick
So are you saying that he was in fact flying an Su-30MKI? The Pakistanis have shown the wreckage and it’s pretty clearly a MiG-21. Also, what cast is he that afforded him so many political connections as you seem to think he has? As I’ve said, USAF pilots go from flying F-16s to drones all the time. It’s not uncommon at all for pilots to be downgraded....it’s a very competitive job.

What makes you think that this guy couldn’t have been reassigned to a different squadron? According to Col Fornoff from the famous Su-30MKI Red Flag video, most of the guys on the Su-30MKI came up from the MiG-21. It’s entirety possible he did a tour or two on the MKI and then got reassigned back to the Bison.

I think your speculation is entirety baseless.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 16:25
by tjodalv43
icemaverick wrote: As I’ve said, USAF pilots go from flying F-16s to drones all the time. It’s not uncommon at all for pilots to be downgraded.


So I have nooo idea how the Indian Air Force does things, but I want to point out that this is an overstatement. Back in the TAMI-21 days it was true but for the past many years it would take special circumstances (medical, family, etc.) for a qualified F-16 pilot or really any 11F to TX to RPAs. The most you’d get “downgraded” these days would be IFF or maybe T-38s in UPT or black T-38s, which is really only a downgrade if you didn’t want it and your next assignment will probably be back to gray jets if that’s what you ask for.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 16:31
by mixelflick
weasel1962 wrote:The claims that the Mig-21 has shot down an F-16, even if untrue, has already cemented minds and perceptions at least on the Indian side, that the F-16 cannot perform. To acknowledge that that is incorrect would be for the Indians to acknowledge that they have engaged in propaganda or media manipulation. Imagine if the Indians do announce an F-21 deal today, that's going to be a media and public outcry why they are buying a plane that got shot down by the plane that it is replacing...Not going to happen.

Also, there's going to be a backlash how come the US didn't do more to stop Pakistan from using their F-16s. That helps because the argument is that the US won't stop the Indians either. But people will focus on the negatives rather than the positives. On the flip side, we see AIM-120s fired at Indian aircraft. The Indian Government stance has painted the MRCA into a corner. The only hope for Americans is that the MRCA decision gets delayed and people forget after a longer period of time.


F-16 can't perform? Quite the contrary...

Let's look at the F-16/SU-30MKI matchup.

The Indians themselves have said SU-30's were in the mix. They also confirmed their SU-30's were locked onto "multiple times" but evaded all ARMAAM's (thus, the aircraft that locked onto them had to be F-16's). Even if that latter part about evading AMRAAM's is true, it was a poor showing. Their best fighter was on the defensive and fighting for its life against F-16's. That wasn't supposed to happen.

Unless and until F-16 wreckage is produced, this claim of a Mig-21 downing it is dubious IMO. If anything, the F-16's stock has risen, given its performance vs. India's best.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 17:36
by icemaverick
mixelflick wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:The claims that the Mig-21 has shot down an F-16, even if untrue, has already cemented minds and perceptions at least on the Indian side, that the F-16 cannot perform. To acknowledge that that is incorrect would be for the Indians to acknowledge that they have engaged in propaganda or media manipulation. Imagine if the Indians do announce an F-21 deal today, that's going to be a media and public outcry why they are buying a plane that got shot down by the plane that it is replacing...Not going to happen.

Also, there's going to be a backlash how come the US didn't do more to stop Pakistan from using their F-16s. That helps because the argument is that the US won't stop the Indians either. But people will focus on the negatives rather than the positives. On the flip side, we see AIM-120s fired at Indian aircraft. The Indian Government stance has painted the MRCA into a corner. The only hope for Americans is that the MRCA decision gets delayed and people forget after a longer period of time.


F-16 can't perform? Quite the contrary...

Let's look at the F-16/SU-30MKI matchup.

The Indians themselves have said SU-30's were in the mix. They also confirmed their SU-30's were locked onto "multiple times" but evaded all ARMAAM's (thus, the aircraft that locked onto them had to be F-16's). Even if that latter part about evading AMRAAM's is true, it was a poor showing. Their best fighter was on the defensive and fighting for its life against F-16's. That wasn't supposed to happen.


“Fighting for its life” is pure speculation. What range were the AMRAAM shots taken at? Evading them might have been easy. For all you know, those shots were taken at the extreme end of the AIM-120’s range, making their hit probability very low. It could be argued that the Flankers didn’t want to waste their missiles on low probability shots. Besides, the AMRAAM probably has a better real world range than the R-77 carried by the Sukhois.

Also, it could also be argued that the F-16s had a poor showing since they had multiple shots and could only bag a Vietnam era fighter. They also didn’t seem to strike any ground targets of value, with the Pakistanis claiming that was intentional and the Indians claiming it was because they successfully repelled the attack.

Unless and until F-16 wreckage is produced, this claim of a Mig-21 downing it is dubious IMO. If anything, the F-16's stock has risen, given its performance vs. India's best.


If getting a lock and firing on an enemy jet is evidence of a good showing, then the MiG-21 had a good showing too. It’s a 1960s era jet that apparently got a lock on an F-16 and at least got a shot off on a defensive Viper. It’s probable that the Wing Commander was on the offensive and pursuing a jet across the border.

Look, I get that this is F-16.net. The Viper is my all tome favorite fighter jet. But we really don’t know many details at all about what went down. The only confirmed kill is a MiG-21.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 16:00
by mixelflick
It's a pretty safe bet that F-16's didn't strike any targets of value because they weren't used in the "strike" role. If they were, they would have crossed the LOC into Pakistan. A no no, given US rules on employing the aircraft. Far more likely they were flying CAP within Pakistan's borders, looking to bag any pursuing Indian jets going after the egress strike package.

Personally, I feel the eyewitness reports of 2-3 parachutes as the best indicator multiple jets went down. Who's those jets were, will probably be debated for some time. For my $, the Indians came out on the losing end of this one (air to air wise).

1.) There were earlier Indian reports (later retracted) of an SU-30MKI shot down
2.) There was confirmation by India SU-30MKI's were in the mix
3.) There was confirmation by India 4-5 AMRAAM's were fired at its SU-30MKI's
4.) India claims all SU-30MKI's dodged the AMRAAM's and returned to base
5.) India also claims an F-16 was downed (no wreckage, no pilot)
6.) 1 confirmed kill of an Indian Mig-21, pilot captured. Accounts vary between an F-16 or JF-17 Thunder made the kill

Both sides have lied/spun their news to make themselves look good. If nothing else changes though, I'd say the PAK got the better of them. As it stands, they're a lot smaller force with much less funding.

I have no dog in this hunt. In fact, I like the Flanker even more than the F-16. But the evidence as I see it is that the Flanker didn't perform as advertised. Only the Indian's know for sure.

It will be interesting to see if they buy F-16IN's, or more Russian jets in the near future - that's for sure.

EDIT: Then there's this...

"Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Saturday accused the Opposition of playing politics over the Rafale deal, saying the entire country was now feeling the need of these fighter planes.

“The country has felt the shortage of Rafale jets. Today, India is asking in one voice what could have happened if we had Rafale. First selfish policies and then politics over the Rafale deal have harmed the nation,” Modi said at the India Today Conclave in the national capital."

When your PM is crowing about "what could have been" if they had Rafale's, it doesn't exactly inspire confidence in the showing your air force put up....

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 10 Mar 2019, 04:07
by icemaverick
mixelflick wrote:It's a pretty safe bet that F-16's didn't strike any targets of value because they weren't used in the "strike" role. If they were, they would have crossed the LOC into Pakistan. A no no, given US rules on employing the aircraft. Far more likely they were flying CAP within Pakistan's borders, looking to bag any pursuing Indian jets going after the egress strike package.


I think you meant LOC into India.

It was already a no no to use AMRAAMs against India and that didn't seem to stop them. The feds are actually investigating whether or not Pakistan used F-16s in the mission. The Indians maintain that the F-16 was used and apparently the MiG-21 that got shot down was pursuing an F-16. So it is entirely possible that the F-16 was used in the strike role.

Personally, I feel the eyewitness reports of 2-3 parachutes as the best indicator multiple jets went down. Who's those jets were, will probably be debated for some time. For my $, the Indians came out on the losing end of this one (air to air wise).


Yes, of that there is little doubt. The Pakistanis have a confirmed MiG-21 kill and a captured pilot. The Indians have no confirmed kills.

1.) There were earlier Indian reports (later retracted) of an SU-30MKI shot down


There were early reports right at the beginning when the information was only getting out. Were there any official Indian government sources that acknowledged a Flanker loss? The IAF has officially stated that no Su-30s were lost.

If we're going to play this game, the Pakistanis claimed they had two pilots in custody and that one was even in the hospital. This wasn't just a media report, that was an official spokesman. Who was the other pilot? The Indian fanboys seem to think it was a Viper driver.

As you said, there is a lot of misinformation and propaganda surrounding this incident. Yes, the Pakistanis may indeed have shot down a Flanker. It's also possible that the Indians shot down an F-16. But judging the relative performance of the F-16 and Su-30 is pure speculation.

2.) There was confirmation by India SU-30MKI's were in the mix
3.) There was confirmation by India 4-5 AMRAAM's were fired at its SU-30MKI's
4.) India claims all SU-30MKI's dodged the AMRAAM's and returned to base


The Su-30MKI's primary mission was to stop the strike package. It was not their goal to engage F-16s on the other side of the border. India and Pakistan both acknowledge that no targets were hit. The Indians claim it's because the strike package had to turn tail and run while the Pakistanis claim that they intentionally didn't hit anything of value.

In that sense, the Su-30MKI achieved its mission. The Pakistanis failed to achieve air superiority. At best they managed air parity and at worst, they were quickly chased out of Indian airspace. Firing 4-5 AMRAAMs from the other side of the border isn't any indication of success. In fact one could argue that it was a failure since there is no evidence that these AMRAAMs hit any Flankers.

5.) India also claims an F-16 was downed (no wreckage, no pilot)


Yup and no wreckage or pilot for any Su-30s either.

6.) 1 confirmed kill of an Indian Mig-21, pilot captured. Accounts vary between an F-16 or JF-17 Thunder made the kill


Some accounts also claim it was a SAM. Who knows? It's probably an F-16 because one of the pilots who was credited with a kill is an F-16 pilot but I guess it's possible he got reassigned to JF-17s.

The MiG-21 charged across the border and the Indians claim that it was in pursuit of an F-16. They even claim it hit the F-16 with an AA-11. Is it true? Who knows? But that's just as speculative as the claim that a Flanker was hit.

Both sides have lied/spun their news to make themselves look good. If nothing else changes though, I'd say the PAK got the better of them. As it stands, they're a lot smaller force with much less funding.


I agree that they got the better of them in that they got a MiG-21 kill. But one small engagement doesn't really say a whole lot. All we know is that the Pakistanis launched a strike mission into India and they were confronted by the IAF. In the process a 4th gen fighter apparently shot down a 3rd gen....not a huge surprise. The MiG-21 is already widely derided as a "flying coffin" in India.

I have no dog in this hunt. In fact, I like the Flanker even more than the F-16. But the evidence as I see it is that the Flanker didn't perform as advertised. Only the Indian's know for sure.


I don't have a dog in this hunt either. I'm not a Flanker fanboy. You've probably seen my posts in the PAK FA thread. I think the Russians have fallen far behind the West and the Chinese will soon surpass them in the fighter game. But these aren't cutting edge F-16s we're talking about here.

What should the Flanker have done to show that it performed as advertised? Should it have taken out 2 F-16s? If the Indian account is to believed, the Pakistanis' strike was utterly unsuccessful because they were chased off by Flankers, Mirages and even MiG-21s.

It will be interesting to see if they buy F-16IN's, or more Russian jets in the near future - that's for sure.


The F-16IN is a far more advanced bird than what the Pakistanis have. It would seem to be a pretty good buy for them. As an F-16 fanboy, I hope they do buy it because it will keep the Viper in service for a long time. But, politics is the big question here.

The Rafale is a good jet but it's very expensive for what you get. The F-16IN would be cheaper and LM is offering them "Make in India" opportunities with the package. Plus, it's a single engine jet. India doesn't seem super keen on a follow on order of Rafales.

It's quite clear that the Indians are not super impressed with the latest Russian offerings. They ditched the PAK FA. They are willing to spend significantly more money for the Rafale than they would for the Su-30MKI or any other Flanker variant. Obviously they wouldn't do that if they didn't think it was worth it.

"Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Saturday accused the Opposition of playing politics over the Rafale deal, saying the entire country was now feeling the need of these fighter planes.

“The country has felt the shortage of Rafale jets. Today, India is asking in one voice what could have happened if we had Rafale. First selfish policies and then politics over the Rafale deal have harmed the nation,” Modi said at the India Today Conclave in the national capital."


Yup.The guy who has been aggressively lobbying for the Rafale for 3 years used this opportunity to lobby for the Rafale. His political opponents are alleging corruption in the Rafale deal and have tried to stall it. What else would you expect him to say?

Look, my point is that the only thing we can conclude from this with any certainly is that there was a confrontation between IAF and PAF jets that resulted in the loss of a MiG-21. Whether or not other jets were lost is unknown. What exactly brought down the MiG-21 is unknown. What exactly the Pakistani jets were targeting is unknown. How the Su-30s and F-16s performed relative to one another is unknown.

You could be right, perhaps the Flankers got waxed by the F-16s. But it's also possible the Flankers chased the F-16s right out of India and even the old MiG-21 gave them all they could handle.

I'm going to wait for the facts to be revealed before drawing conclusions.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 12 Mar 2019, 01:30
by weasel1962
If PAF F-16s had struck anything or used in the strike, the Indians will be up in arms. Pieces of Mk-82 serials will be floating around the web by now. Too much fake news, I'd rather not use imagination.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 12 Mar 2019, 13:12
by madrat
There is absolutely no proof any jets crossed the border other than a single MiG-21. Depending on authenticity of a dubious video, maybe an Su-30MKI. Otherwise any exchange that occurred last February was likely from their own sides of the border.

F-21 offers Rafale-lite for considerable savings. The premium for Rafale makes sense if you cannot afford numbers under LockMart's plan, but otherwise they have the caveat of building it. The engine of the F-21 surely is a leap forward from AL-31 that they build indigenous at the moment. But even this version they license build is considerably behind the curve of current Al-31 designs and retains known flaws.

I think the IAF is getting drunk on these luxuries. HAL may never recover.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2019, 09:10
by krieger22
Lockheed is claiming that the F-21 will be unique to India: https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/lockhee ... in-2037095

In an interview to PTI, Mr Lall said the new combat jet is designed to operate across over 60 air force stations in India, and its key aspects include superior engine matrix, electronic warfare system and weapons carrying capacity.

"We will not sell this platform and the configuration to anyone in the world. It is a significant commitment by Lockheed Martin and it shows importance of India and importance of unique requirement India has," he said.


Mr Lall said if Lockheed wins the contract, it will not only set up a state-of-the-art F-21 manufacturing facility along with the Tata Group, but will also help India create an ecosystem for overall growth of the country's defence manufacturing.

On observation that the F-21 is similar to Lockheed's F 16 Block 70 combat jet, he said such a view is unfair as there have been significantly differences between the two platforms.

F-21 is different in terms of various aspects including its air frame, weapons capability, engine matrix and availability of engine options.

"As for example, you are now looking at 12,000 hours of service life air frame in F-21 versus 8,000 hours previously (F 16 Block 70). The additional 40 per cent weapons carrying capability is new in F-21 which was not there in F 16 Block 70. The electronic warfare system is uniquely developed for India," he added.

"Looking from a distance may make it look similar to F 16 Block 70, but it is different," he added.

Besides having a traditional boom-delivered refueling facility, the F 21 also has an extendable hose-and-drogue refuelling probe.

"This is the only fighter in the world which has both the capabilities," said Mr Lall, adding the cockpit has a new large area display.

"It is a modern cockpit and has a significant piece of ability to synthesise information. These are unique capabilities that we are not offering to other countries in the world," said the Lockheed executive.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2019, 09:38
by popcorn
https://www-ndtv-com.cdn.ampproject.org ... ed-martin-


F-21 Jets Won't Be Sold To Others If India Decides To Buy It: Lockheed






F-21 Jets Won't Be Sold To Others If India Decides To Buy It: Lockheed
All India Press Trust of India
Vivek Lall, vice president of Strategy and Business Development for Lockheed Martin, says if F-21 wins the contract, then India will be integrated into the company's global fighter ecosystem, which is a USD 165 billion dollar market.
Updated : May 13, 2019 22:17 IST
Lockheed unveiled the F-21 during the Aero India show in Bengaluru in February (File Photo)

New Delhi: US aerospace giant Lockheed Martin says it will not sell its newly rolled out F-21 fighter jet to any other country if India places an order for 114 planes, in an offer aimed at pitching itself ahead of its US, European and Russian competitors for the mega deal.
Vivek Lall, vice president of Strategy and Business Development for Lockheed Martin, says if F-21 wins the contract, then India will be integrated into the company's global fighter ecosystem, which is a USD 165 billion dollar market.

In an interview to PTI, Mr Lall said the new combat jet is designed to operate across over 60 air force stations in India, and its key aspects include superior engine matrix, electronic warfare system and weapons carrying capacity.

Re: Meet the F-21!

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2019, 21:24
by edpop
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