F-16 Block 72 offered to Bulgaria?

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marsavian

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Unread post12 Oct 2018, 13:58

That test F-35 was limited to 5g and had its FCS tuned after that and other tests to sharpen up pitch/yaw/AoA response. F-16s will not generally get into WVR range to do any dogfighting against an F-35 because they will be usually taken out at BVR range by an opponent that has already tracked and fired on them as numerous accounts have indicated in the last couple of years. F-16 may still have the better sustained turning ability but then it probably beats most other fighters on that score but it's pretty obvious that the F-35 has it beat on changing angles quickly in flight.

Can a production 3F F-35 lose to an F-16 WVR, sure just as the opposite could and does happen in current training, but the trick is to be able to get WVR of an F-35 in the first place which is the very hard part to do. The F-16 Block 70/72 will be fine for Bulgaria for its air defense needs against potential Russian aircraft but it would be at a SA disadvantage against any stealthy aircraft meaning it would start combat at a disadvantage by dodging BVR missiles. Dogfights are probably the most glamorous part of air combat but even historically the unseen stalking slasher has been more successful at it.
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ricnunes

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Unread post12 Oct 2018, 14:13

popcorn wrote:
peacepuma wrote:Silly buralas, little I argue .., we all know that a F-16 ++ with electronics similar to the F-35 and Python IV-V, it manages to defeat even F-35, both can give maneuvers 9G and-3G, f-35 is top, not invincible to the F-35


Nope, not invincible.


Not invincible indeed (nothing is) but it's very, very unlikely that a 4+++++ gen fighter aircraft can defeat a F-35.
Or more precisely the advantage is all in the F-35's side.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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popcorn

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Unread post12 Oct 2018, 14:28

peacepuma wrote:The F-35 Can't Beat The Plane It's Replacing In A Dogfight: Report

Tyler Rogoway
6/29/15 5:29pmFiled to: F-35 SAGA
.
LOL.. you're stuck in 2015 and the world has passed you by.
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ricnunes

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Unread post12 Oct 2018, 14:31

peacepuma wrote:The F-35 Can't Beat The Plane It's Replacing In A Dogfight: Report

Tyler Rogoway
...
David Axe.


LOL, the only thing worse than having a post quoting Tyler Rogoway or a post quoting David Axe is having a post quoting both :doh:

That "episode" that you're quoting was already debated and explained to death here at f-16.net!
The short story about it, is exactly what marsavian posted so I won't repeat it (by using other words).

If you want to really know how a F-35 would face against a F-16 in terms of "raw performance" here's the real deal from a real Norwegian pilot which flew both the F-35 and the F-16 (the English part of the article is on the second and bottom half of the page):
https://nettsteder.regjeringen.no/kampf ... ed-so-far/

And note that he's taking about raw performance when pitting both aircraft. He's not even mentioning electronics/avionics that much.
You came up here claiming about the F-16 pilot having a HMD and IR guided missiles such as the Python IV/V which can be aimed by the helmet as some sort of a "silver bullet" against the F-35 but then do you forget that the F-35 has an even more advanced helmet of this kind which can aim AIM-9X and ASRAAM missiles.
Moreover do you forget (or simply don't know) what F-35's DAS is??
With DAS a F-35 pilot will always know where the F-16 is all around with a 360º spherical coverage, all of this if the F-16 ever happens to "get close" to a F-35.
DAS alone and I mean alone, already gives the F-35 a tremendous/BRUTAL advantage over any other aircraft (including of course the F-16) namely during a dogfight, then add the fact that the F-35 has better overall agility, stealth, sensor fusion, etc... and the chances that the F-16 could ever win against a F-35 are at best, very, very slim!

Now if you want to continue to believe in fairies, unicorns and leprechauns please be my guest! :roll:
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post12 Oct 2018, 15:26

ricnunes wrote:Now if you want to continue to believe in fairies, unicorns and leprechauns please be my guest! :roll:

Guys, we need to stop the ad hominum attacks. We collectively view F-16.net as the finest military aviation forum because of our ability to discuss things in a civilized manner. There is never an excuse for personal attacks.

Did he make an claim that seems incredulous? yes. Did he try and back up his claim with outdated info? yes. Does this mean you throw personal attacks at him? No. You update the knowledge base of said person with more and more recent information and leave it up to them to process the new information. If they choose to not accept the new information then you have the power to ignore them.

Keep it professional and classy, that's all I'm asking. Even I have been wrong from time to time and I respond much better to being provided with better info than insults and name calling.
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Unread post12 Oct 2018, 23:02

sprstdlyscottsmn,

Honestly I don't think that I "performed" any kind an "ad hominum" attack. Please re-read again my posts.
What I mean was exactly this:
- If he still wishes to believe that an updated F-16 (or any other updated 4th gen fighter aircraft) has a "parity chance" against the F-35 than he may as well believe in fairies, unicorns and leprechauns. Honestly I fail to see this as being a personal and/or ad hominum attack. Even you admit that he made an incredulous claims but you know what was the main problem here? He didn't made one of such claims - He made four (4) of such claims in a row before even trying to back up such claims (feel free to re-read this thread since the beginning).
Then of course he used that well known already debated to death article about the F-35 flight control laws testing which was distorted by some media as being a sort of a "F-35 versus F-16 dogfight".

Again if you read with more care what I previously posted you could see (actually read) that I retorted to him by posting a credible and accurate information (from someone who really knows the subject) on how the F-35 actually performs against a F-16 (Hanche's article), this in order to "update his knowledge base", this using your own words.
So what I did in the end was basically to say to peacepuma that if he still wants to believe that aircraft like updated F-16s have parity against the F-35, this in face that his believes aren't true, he may as well believe in fairies, unicorns and leprechauns. If this is a personal attack than I can only imagine what would be an actual personal attack...
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post12 Oct 2018, 23:32

ricnunes wrote:this in face that his believes aren't true, he may as well believe in fairies, unicorns and leprechauns. If this is a personal attack than I can only imagine what would be an actual personal attack...

I have been reading this from the beginning, and I was pleased with your response right up until this. While this is not the worst of the personal attacks I have seen here, it was still personal in nature and added nothing to the discussion. If anything such a statement is going to make peacepuma resentful toward your post and may hinder their ability to take in the new information you posted.

I expect excellence from the crowd here, and that may be unrealistic, but it is how I feel.
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Unread post13 Oct 2018, 01:12

There is this fine line that can easily be.crossed between attacking a statement, which is always fair game, and the person making it.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
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Unread post13 Oct 2018, 14:33

Ricnunes, F-35s have virtually died in Red Flags WVR by say respawned F-16s so it's not an outrageous suggestion peacepuma is proposing. The whole point of stealth/5th gen is to stack the cards in your favor from the beginning at BVR so even if you go WVR it's your choice and because you are prosecuting an advantageous position. In a WVR merge melee numbers and tactics count probably as much if not more than the individual aircraft performance plus Hobs missiles reduce the margin for error even more.

4+ gen aircraft are relying on RWRs and IRSTs to reduce the stealth advantage so they have a better chance than original 4th gen aircraft with insensitive Radar/RWRs and no IRSTs who are literally blind against stealth aircraft relying solely on boresight RF/IR missiles and guns WVR. The odds are still against 4+ gen aircraft as these sensors are less reliable than radar in getting consistent target track solutions and the stealth of the opponent still has to be overcome by the small radar in the missile head meaning IR missiles at almost BVR/WVR range are the only long distance shot other aircraft can seriously get at stealth aircraft before requiring guns.
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Unread post13 Oct 2018, 15:16

marsavian wrote:Ricnunes, F-35s have virtually died in Red Flags WVR by say respawned F-16s so it's not an outrageous suggestion peacepuma is proposing.


The fact that F-35's "have been killed" by respawning F-16's clearly means that 4+ don't have a parity (and nothing near as close as it) against F-35's. You know, in real combat there's no such thing as "respawn". And that's basically my point.
Now what peacepuma claimed (and childishly so) and was that 4<insert how many extra pluses you which> had a parity chance with the F-35 which of course is <insert your politically correct word or not, here>.

Of course there's always a chance that a F-35 could be shot down by one of those 4(whatever pluses) aircraft due to some (F-35) pilot mistake and/or pure luck but then again for this to happen, how many of those 4(pluses) aircraft would have been shot down in the process??
For example, during Vietnam A-1 Skyraiders managed to shot down a Mig-17 but does this mean that the A-1 has parity with the Mig-17? Of course not! But if you believe otherwise then we have the fairies, unicorns, etc... and again that was my whole point here.

marsavian wrote:4+ gen aircraft are relying on RWRs and IRSTs to reduce the stealth advantage so they have a better chance than original 4th gen aircraft with insensitive Radar/RWRs and no IRSTs who are literally blind against stealth aircraft relying solely on boresight RF/IR missiles and guns WVR. The odds are still against 4+ gen aircraft as these sensors are less reliable than radar in getting consistent target track solutions and the stealth of the opponent still has to be overcome by the small radar in the missile head meaning IR missiles at almost BVR/WVR range are the only long distance shot other aircraft can seriously get at stealth aircraft before requiring guns.


RWRs and IRSTs are tools that the F-35 also have (and better so) so the improvements that those sensors may give to a 4+ gen aircraft against a F-35 will be marginal at best. Those sensors may indeed give 4+ gen fighter aircraft a major advantage against 4th gen fighter aircraft (imagine for example a F-16 Block 70 against the best variants of the Su-30) but again they will be pretty much hopeless against a F-35 and why?
For starters F-35 has stealth. This is a HUGE advantage that 4+ gen aircraft will never have, period. Then if a F-35 and a 4+ gen fighter aircraft happen to engage in a dogfight there's DAS thru which the F-35 pilot will always know where the opposing aircraft is all around the F-35 or more precisely will give the F-35 pilot a superior and much better Situational awareness, this even during a dogfight and dogfights are the vast majority of time won by the pilot with better situational awareness.
Last edited by ricnunes on 13 Oct 2018, 15:30, edited 1 time in total.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post13 Oct 2018, 15:28

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:While this is not the worst of the personal attacks I have seen here, it was still personal in nature and added nothing to the discussion.

I admit that I used a bit of irony on my post regarding the part that you are referring to but this was in no way a personal attack. I don't see using irony about opinions has being a personal attack but I guess we probably agree to disagree here.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post13 Oct 2018, 18:04

I can agree to agreeing to disagree. :D
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Unread post14 Oct 2018, 22:20

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:I can agree to agreeing to disagree. :D


LOL :mrgreen:
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post16 Oct 2018, 20:42

the whole conversation should be deleted.... completely offtop...
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Unread post18 Dec 2018, 22:48

James Robinson, International Business Development F-16, Lockheed Martin Speech

It will come as no surprise to you that I am here primarily to talk to you about the F-16 Block 70 offer for the Bulgarian Air Force, and it will also not surprise you that I consider it to be the best aircraft in its class in the multi-role fighter aircraft competition. But as a former F-16 pilot myself, I may be accused of some bias.

------

FG18-21774_003_BulgariaF-16_Banner.png


F-16 Block 70 Advantages
So we know the aircraft has an excellent pedigree, but what about the future?

The Block 70 and 72 aircraft are the most advanced F-16s to date and a testament to the unbeaten track record of these fighter aircraft. The F-16 brings together superior aircraft performance and robust mission radius capability and air patrol times.

Today’s F-16 leverages proven and mature systems which are complemented by state-of-the-art developments in fighter aircraft technology. These include a systems suite that provides the pilot with an awareness of the combat space that is unmatched by any other 4th generation aircraft.

Lockheed Martin has also integrated technologies derived from the F-22 and F-35, including the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) APG-83 radar that provides F-16s with 5th generation fighter radar capability – there is a 95 per cent software commonality with the F-35 radar and more than 70 per cent hardware commonality.

Amongst its many benefits, the AESA radar provides improved detection and tracking ranges, the ability to track 20 or more targets and the ability to conduct both air-to-air AND air-to-surface operations at the same time.

Its performance as a single-engine fighter is also unmatched – it achieves 50% better time to climb, its acceleration is 35 per cent better and it has a 50% greater air-frame life than its nearest competitors – the new F-16 Block 70 aircraft are now certified to 12,000 flight hours each, which is well beyond the original 8,000 hour lifespan.

The F-16 Block 70 has 40% greater combat air patrol time and nearly 50% greater weapons carrying capability over other single-engine fighter aircraft at a cost much lower than two-engine fighters. A range of innovative safety features are included in the F-16 including the one-of-a-kind Automatic Ground Collision Avoidance System – or Auto-GCAS – which has already saved the lives of seven F-16 pilots around the world.

The F-16’s performance, capability, low life-cycle costs, and ease of maintenance are all aspects that will make the difference between the success and failure of the mission, and there is no mission more critical than defending Bulgarian sovereign air space. The F-16 is the best choice for the Bulgarian Air Force pilots; providing them with unmatched maneuverability, advanced avionics, AESA radar, and the advanced Helmet Mounted Cueing System, will give your pilots unmatched situational awareness, and offensive capability against the enemy.

We anticipate potential for at least 400 new orders for this new breed of F-16, while also having four customers who are upgrading their existing F-16 fleets with these new technologies. As a result of this continued demand we have a new F-16 assembly facility in Greenville, South Carolina and we expect to see the F-16 flying into 2045 and beyond.[/i]

Source: https://amcham.bg/2018/11/21/f-16-block ... mpetition/
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