Israel loses F-16 in raid

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krorvik

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Unread post11 Feb 2018, 14:48

Looks like a 2k12 missile. Aka kub, or sa-6.
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rheonomic

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Unread post11 Feb 2018, 17:05

krorvik wrote:And the F-35s are still not operational.


Might be arguing a technicality, but I thought the IDF/AF had declared IOC.

That said I don't think there's a compelling reason to employ them at this point and that the F-15s, F-16s, and various UAS are more than sufficient for the level of threat the Syrian air defenses provide. Sometimes you just get unlucky.
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ricnunes

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Unread post11 Feb 2018, 18:00

rheonomic wrote:
krorvik wrote:And the F-35s are still not operational.


Might be arguing a technicality, but I thought the IDF/AF had declared IOC.

That said I don't think there's a compelling reason to employ them at this point and that the F-15s, F-16s, and various UAS are more than sufficient for the level of threat the Syrian air defenses provide. Sometimes you just get unlucky.


Besides that and while Israel already declared IOC with their F-35s they still have very few of them - apparently only 9 F-35s were delivered so far (which is not even a full squadron) so why would they employ them to destroy a simple UAV command post which probably appeared to be not so well protected?
Incurring the risk of repeating myself, this seems to be the result of a quite well planned ambush tactic.
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rheonomic

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Unread post11 Feb 2018, 19:06

ricnunes wrote:so why would they employ them to destroy a simple UAV command post which probably appeared to be not so well protected?


I was thinking more along the lines of possible employment for a redo of Mole Cricket 19.
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ricnunes

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Unread post11 Feb 2018, 22:06

rheonomic wrote:
ricnunes wrote:so why would they employ them to destroy a simple UAV command post which probably appeared to be not so well protected?


I was thinking more along the lines of possible employment for a redo of Mole Cricket 19.


Oh, I see.
Well that is something that could eventually happen from now on.
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element1loop

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Unread post12 Feb 2018, 06:06

gc wrote: ... i simply do not understand why idiotic armchair generals can continue insisting how upgraded non-stealth fighters would somehow survive against double digit SAMs. This is real world demonstration of the need for an all stealth fighter fleet. ... ...But in the eyes of many, the sight of a single pilot in enemy’s hands will make it a propaganda victory for the enemy.


Now put Prowlers or Growlers on the flank or rear to support the flight and you'd not be posting those comments as the thread would not have existed.

Changing the noise floor is the equivalent to having electronic area LO. They had EA, just not enough, but given the duration of the engagement and the missile numbers I'd say the EA worked very well. They far from lost the day.

And propaganda 'wins' are not wins, they're tomorrow's fish 'n chip wrapper.

I'd like to see pictures of the targets they hit posted alongside the lost aircraft. Propaganda 'wins' are quickly deflated by the actual situation and providing perspective which speaks for itself.

You could argue for a 100% LO force but can you get one built any sooner via arguing for it?

Keep in mind, F-35 was designed to change the signal to noise ratio also ... via EA.

Why?

VLO surfaces are not the F-35s only magic bullet, it is a synergy of passive and active tech.

What I'd love to see are 2 x Growlers with NGJ and dead weapon nailing an S400 network and surviving it no sweat.


Instant attitude adjuster.
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gc

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Unread post12 Feb 2018, 08:08

Propaganda wins is nothing to be ignored. You can often see how clever use of propaganda can inflate a minor tactical achievement into something that overshadows what was actually a defeat. Think Russian hybrid warfare and how it deliberately feeds misinformation to achieve its aim. No doubt the Israeli strike achieved its planned objective with an just 1 aircraft lost, but all major news headlines is screaming about the downed F-16 instead of the actually destruction of the targets. And Syria is now vigorously spinning the story of how Israeli air dominance in the middle east is now in question when it isn't.

Coming from the pilot's perspective, any pilot sitting in the cockpit tasked to strike a heavily defended target would want to have as unfair an advantage as possible when the consequence of being show down is death in a painful way (burnt to death). I am sure they wouldn't mind having stealth on top of all the proper mission planning, cyber warfare, self protection and escort jamming, decoys, evasive manoeuvres, standoff weaponry and luck we all know about.
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citanon

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Unread post12 Feb 2018, 08:24

So, Israel is claiming that it just destroyed half of Syria's air defenses.

No word on what aircrafts participated in the attacks.
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gc

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Unread post12 Feb 2018, 08:58

element1loop wrote:
gc wrote: ... i simply do not understand why idiotic armchair generals can continue insisting how upgraded non-stealth fighters would somehow survive against double digit SAMs. This is real world demonstration of the need for an all stealth fighter fleet. ... ...But in the eyes of many, the sight of a single pilot in enemy’s hands will make it a propaganda victory for the enemy.


You could argue for a 100% LO force but can you get one built any sooner via arguing for it?



You might not get it sooner, but this can help remind people not to fall prey to the myth created by manufacturers of 4+ generation fighters that their balanced approach to survivability is good enough for future threats.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post12 Feb 2018, 10:18

gc wrote:
element1loop wrote:
gc wrote: ... i simply do not understand why idiotic armchair generals can continue insisting how upgraded non-stealth fighters would somehow survive against double digit SAMs. This is real world demonstration of the need for an all stealth fighter fleet. ... ...But in the eyes of many, the sight of a single pilot in enemy’s hands will make it a propaganda victory for the enemy.


You could argue for a 100% LO force but can you get one built any sooner via arguing for it?



You might not get it sooner, but this can help remind people not to fall prey to the myth created by manufacturers of 4+ generation fighters that their balanced approach to survivability is good enough for future threats.


I love that "balanced approach" BS... :roll: Like having 1000 times higher RCS, several times less jamming power, having non-LPI/LPD radar and communications systems and higher infra-red signature is somehow balanced... Yea, my car also has balanced approach to performance... :D
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ricnunes

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Unread post12 Feb 2018, 11:14

gc wrote:Propaganda wins is nothing to be ignored.


Precisely!
And what you said above can be proven with the following "single word":

- Vietnam
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michaelemouse

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Unread post12 Feb 2018, 22:00

The Israelis might already be using F-35s in addition to their 4th gen fighters. A low threat enemy like current Syria might be a good place to practice networked warfare. You don't need 100% LO fighter force if you use the 5th gen fighters as high altitude forward spotters and targeters while using 4th gen fighters as low altitude rear shooters.

The only downside I can see is the possibility of providing potential enemies with signature data about the F-35. Although even then, the US doesn't seem to have problems using the F-22.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post13 Feb 2018, 04:20

gc wrote:
You might not get it sooner, but this can help remind people not to fall prey to the myth created by manufacturers of 4+ generation fighters that their balanced approach to survivability is good enough for future threats.



This. It wasn't even a few years ago people were calling for heavily upgraded teen fighters, and some still do.
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milosh

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Unread post16 Feb 2018, 10:47

It look like upgraded S-125 down F-16, here it is during Syrian fire exercise:


Damn good upgrade for more then half century old system.
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element1loop

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Unread post16 Feb 2018, 14:15

milosh wrote:It look like upgraded S-125 down F-16, here it is during Syrian fire exercise:
https://youtu.be/2ZFIbuzQSLg?t=66
m
Damn good upgrade for more then half century old system.


Wiki SA-5 (S-200) page entry says:

" ... On February 10, 2018, Israel launched an air strike against targets in Syria with 8 fighters. The Syrian Air Defenses shot down one Israeli F-16 fighter jet with an S-200 missile when it was attacking Syrian military base. The jet crashed in the Jezreel Valley, near Harduf.[46][47] Both the pilot and the navigator managed to eject, one has been injured lightly and the other has been injured more seriously, but both survived.[48] ..."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA-5_Gammon

[48] "Pilot of downed F-16 jet regains consciousness, taken off respirator". Times of Israel. 11 February 2018

That reference link says this:

"... Brig. Gen. Tomer Bar, the Israeli Air Force’s second-in-command, said the Israeli planes faced a massive barrage of Syrian anti-aircraft fire, which reportedly included at least four different types of Russian-made air defense systems, specifically the SA-5 [S-200], SA-17, SA-6 and SA-3 [S-125]. ..."

https://www.timesofisrael.com/pilot-of- ... espirator/

With respect to 4th-gen survivability:

"... According to NATO, 477 missiles were fired, but without a single success. As comparison the fixed SA-2 and SA-3 sites demonstrated a similar low rate success, but suffered losses to around 66 to 80 percent.[34] According to one report, during the 78 day campaign, Yugoslav fired 673 SAM's - including 106 man-portable, 126 unidentified, 175 SA-3 and 266 SA-6 missiles at NATO aircraft[35] ..."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2K12_Kub

---

These systems seem like a compelling case of on-going nothing-burger ... updated too.

You'd really hope your newer gen SAMs are radically more effective. It must be a concern and open-question for the Russians and Chinese.
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