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Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 21 Sep 2011, 22:27
by yakuza
consequent upgrade,and pretty expensive!!
The Taipei Economic and Cultural Representative Office in the United States has requested a retrofit of 145 F-16A/B aircraft that includes sale of: 176 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radars; 176 Embedded Global Positioning System Inertial Navigation Systems; 176 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management systems; upgrade 82 ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures (ECM) pods to incorporate Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) technology or purchase new ECM pods (AN/ALQ-211(V)9 Airborne Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites (AIDEWS) with DRFM, or AN/ALQ-131 pods with DRFM); 86 tactical data link terminals; upgrade 28 electro-optical infrared targeting Sharpshooter pods; 26 AN/AAQ-33 SNIPER Targeting Systems or AN/AAQ-28 LITENING Targeting Systems; 128 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems; 128 Night Vision Goggles; 140 AIM-9X SIDEWINDER Missiles; 56 AIM-9X Captive Air Training Missiles; 5 AIM-9X Telemetry kits; 16 GBU-31V1 Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAMs) kits; 80 GBU-38 JDAM kits; Dual Mode/ Global Positioning System Laser-Guided Bombs (16 GBU-10 Enhanced PAVEWAY II or GBU-56 Laser JDAM, 80 GBU-12 Enhanced PAVEWAY II or GBU-54 Laser JDAM, 16 GBU-24 Enhanced PAVEWAY III); 64 CBU-105 Sensor Fused Weapons with Wind-Corrected Munition Dispensers (WDMD); 153 LAU-129 Launchers with missile interface; upgrade of 158 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Combined Interrogator Transponders; and HAVE GLASS II applications. Also included are: ammunition, alternate mission equipment, engineering and design study on replacing existing F100-PW-220 engines with F100-PW-229 engines, update of Modular Mission Computers, cockpit multifunction displays, communication equipment, Joint Mission Planning Systems, maintenance, construction, repair and return, aircraft tanker support, aircraft ferry services, aircraft and ground support equipment, spare and repair parts, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical, and logistics support, test equipment, site surveys, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $5.3 billion.
...

http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/ ... _11-39.pdf

RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 21 Sep 2011, 22:49
by SpudmanWP
Here is a news article about it.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i= ... =ASI&s=TOP

Several items in the article and above announcement:

1. AESA will be either Raytheon's RACR or Northrop Grumman's SABR.

2. Have Glass 2 upgrades

3. Full DRFM EW suites/pods

4. No BVR missiles at this time, but will get 9x

5. Will get JDAM for the first time.

RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 22 Sep 2011, 03:20
by golden_eagle
I'd say that's a heck of a deal!

Guess all those iPods/iPads/Android's we Americans buy has been profitable for the Gvt of Taiwan...

RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 22 Sep 2011, 23:25
by discofishing
Can anyone put the numbers to the performance gains if the ROCAF Vipers get upgraded with -229 engines?

RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 23 Sep 2011, 07:03
by discofishing
I was always wondering it was possible, on an engineering level, to modify ROCAF F-16s to accept CFTs, just in case the worst happens. I imagine Taiwan will want to strike back in an all out war.

Re: RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 23 Sep 2011, 20:38
by HaveVoid
discofishing wrote:I was always wondering it was possible, on an engineering level, to modify ROCAF F-16s to accept CFTs, just in case the worst happens. I imagine Taiwan will want to strike back in an all out war.


I'd have to imagine, that if the worst happened, that there woulnd't be any way for ROCAF F-16s to get off the ground. The PLAAF has to have complete disruption of Taiwanese airbases as pritity number one in the event of an attack. I'm not sure how much good hitting a few targets on mainland China would be if they have a huge invasion force crossing the straits.

Am I the only one who thinks that the armaments being sold to them are rather low numbers? In any sort of conflict, a few dozen Jdams, WCMD, and AIM-9X won't last all that long :shock: .

Re: RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 23 Sep 2011, 22:45
by That_Engine_Guy
Over 145 PW-229EEPs!?! :cool:

That would keep the F100 line open a while longer.

One should note the article states "Also included are:... ...engineering and design study on replacing existing F100-PW-220 engines with F100-PW-229 engines..."

So the quoted figure only includes the 'study' not the actual act of new engines; but we all know it's possible for the newest F100s to fit into the same space as the oldest F100s. Additionally no inlet/fuselage modifications would be required.

My estimates, considering a reasonable level of spares, would land around $900+ million in US sales. A 20/4 spare ratio; (145+29)*$5.2M=$904.8M.

discofishing wrote:Can anyone put the numbers to the performance gains if the ROCAF Vipers get upgraded with -229 engines?


I know the Block 42s enjoyed the performance increase; made them just as potent as the 50/52s. I think the USAF/PW did try a PW-229 in a B model once at Edwards, but not certain.

Increased acceleration, decreased fuel consumption (less A/B time), increased JEIM repair capabilities, almost 50% increase in TBO.

Needless to say, new PW-229EEP engines for Taiwan would give their 'highly-modernized' A/B Vipers quite a punch.

I guess this will unfold over the next few months/years; by then I hope we have an 'administration' that takes care of our allies as we should, and keeps an eye on all the American Aerospace jobs....

Keep 'em flyin' :thumb:
TEG

RE: Re: RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 23 Sep 2011, 23:29
by discofishing
I'd have to imagine, that if the worst happened, that there woulnd't be any way for ROCAF F-16s to get off the ground. The PLAAF has to have complete disruption of Taiwanese airbases as pritity number one in the event of an attack. I'm not sure how much good hitting a few targets on mainland China would be if they have a huge invasion force crossing the straits.

Am I the only one who thinks that the armaments being sold to them are rather low numbers? In any sort of conflict, a few dozen Jdams, WCMD, and AIM-9X won't last all that long Shocked .


I'm going to assume Taiwan has a VAST intelligence network inside of mainland China and would have fair warning if any attack were to happen.

Re: RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 26 Sep 2011, 10:38
by Conan
HaveVoid wrote:
discofishing wrote:I was always wondering it was possible, on an engineering level, to modify ROCAF F-16s to accept CFTs, just in case the worst happens. I imagine Taiwan will want to strike back in an all out war.


I'd have to imagine, that if the worst happened, that there woulnd't be any way for ROCAF F-16s to get off the ground. The PLAAF has to have complete disruption of Taiwanese airbases as pritity number one in the event of an attack. I'm not sure how much good hitting a few targets on mainland China would be if they have a huge invasion force crossing the straits.

Am I the only one who thinks that the armaments being sold to them are rather low numbers? In any sort of conflict, a few dozen Jdams, WCMD, and AIM-9X won't last all that long :shock: .


You'd also have to imagine that Taiwan makes extensive use of highways as temporary runways and has extensive runway repair capabilities within it's engineer capabilities.

As to the low numbers of weapons, those are just the opening of FMS accounts for those systems. It's normal practice to make further purchases of the same equipment from the same account. Numbers given in initial acquisition requests don't really mean all that much.

Re: RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 27 Dec 2011, 06:21
by ktworld
SpudmanWP wrote:Here is a news article about it.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i= ... =ASI&s=TOP

Several items in the article and above announcement:



4. No BVR missiles at this time, but will get 9x



Taiwan actually already have in their arsenal approx 100 AIM120-C5's and 200 AIM120-C7's, so there is existing BVR capabilities.

RE: Re: RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 29 Dec 2011, 16:28
by Gamera
] A strong Taiwan will easily contain maoist China

I don't think so, Captain.
Taiwan is out-gunned and out-numbered, and the Yanks aren't garrisoned in Taiwan, unlike in Japan and ROK.
In an hot war, the few Singaporean soldiers in Taiwan probably won't fight for Taiwan either.

RE: Re: RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2011, 05:33
by madrat
Has Taiwan planned upgrades to their F-CK-1 to coincide with the F-16A upgrades? They bought way more MICA missiles than they'll ever fire from the 2K's. Maybe they should think about at least integrating them into the F-CK-1 to supplement their artificially restricted to near knife-fighting F-16's. Who could envy their position of facing R-77's? I'm sure the AIM-9X only got approved to head off a purchase from Israel.

Re: RE: Re: RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2011, 12:39
by discofishing
Gamera wrote:] A strong Taiwan will easily contain maoist China

I don't think so, Captain.
Taiwan is out-gunned and out-numbered, and the Yanks aren't garrisoned in Taiwan, unlike in Japan and ROK.
In an hot war, the few Singaporean soldiers in Taiwan probably won't fight for Taiwan either.



My best guess is a "strong" Taiwan can put up enough of a fight to allow US/Allied assistance to arrive. If China goes after Taiwan, it will probably being going after something else too.

Re: RE: Re: RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 06 Feb 2012, 08:21
by ktworld
madrat wrote:Has Taiwan planned upgrades to their F-CK-1 to coincide with the F-16A upgrades? They bought way more MICA missiles than they'll ever fire from the 2K's. Maybe they should think about at least integrating them into the F-CK-1 to supplement their artificially restricted to near knife-fighting F-16's. Who could envy their position of facing R-77's? I'm sure the AIM-9X only got approved to head off a purchase from Israel.


Taiwan is undergoing MLU on one half of their F-CK-1's, and drafting plans on the upgrade of the remainder half. With the upgrade, it will be able to carry 4 BVR missiles (originally 2). It will also enhance the radar/mission computer, as well as adding long range air-to-surface capability....

Why would you consider Taiwan's F-16's as "near knife-fighting" when they currently have about 300 AIM-120 in their arsenal??

Re: RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 10 Feb 2012, 14:47
by kitsch
Conan wrote:
You'd also have to imagine that Taiwan makes extensive use of highways as temporary runways and has extensive runway repair capabilities within it's engineer capabilities.



Hi, all.Long time lurker first time posting.

Indeed there's extensive preparations in Taiwan regarding wartime-use of highway as temporary runways,here's a segment of a program National Geographic channel did
on an exercise showing simulated landing/ rearming of an F-16B Blk 20, F-CK-1,and a Mirage 2000-5 featuring videos from the cockpit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEwZuBhX2AY&feature=related

Also....There're currently 18 airports in operation in Taiwan, about 5 airports per

100,000 square kilometers, makes it the 3rd in airport density around the world.

And if this is not enough...there're around 180~275 abandoned airports littering around the countryside most of them have never been used but still intact.

So from a pratical point of view it would be more efficient to target the plans and other supporting structures rather than the runway itself.