Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 21 Sep 2011, 22:27
by yakuza
consequent upgrade,and pretty expensive!!
The Taipei Economic and Cultural Representative Office in the United States has requested a retrofit of 145 F-16A/B aircraft that includes sale of: 176 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radars; 176 Embedded Global Positioning System Inertial Navigation Systems; 176 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management systems; upgrade 82 ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures (ECM) pods to incorporate Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) technology or purchase new ECM pods (AN/ALQ-211(V)9 Airborne Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites (AIDEWS) with DRFM, or AN/ALQ-131 pods with DRFM); 86 tactical data link terminals; upgrade 28 electro-optical infrared targeting Sharpshooter pods; 26 AN/AAQ-33 SNIPER Targeting Systems or AN/AAQ-28 LITENING Targeting Systems; 128 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems; 128 Night Vision Goggles; 140 AIM-9X SIDEWINDER Missiles; 56 AIM-9X Captive Air Training Missiles; 5 AIM-9X Telemetry kits; 16 GBU-31V1 Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAMs) kits; 80 GBU-38 JDAM kits; Dual Mode/ Global Positioning System Laser-Guided Bombs (16 GBU-10 Enhanced PAVEWAY II or GBU-56 Laser JDAM, 80 GBU-12 Enhanced PAVEWAY II or GBU-54 Laser JDAM, 16 GBU-24 Enhanced PAVEWAY III); 64 CBU-105 Sensor Fused Weapons with Wind-Corrected Munition Dispensers (WDMD); 153 LAU-129 Launchers with missile interface; upgrade of 158 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Combined Interrogator Transponders; and HAVE GLASS II applications. Also included are: ammunition, alternate mission equipment, engineering and design study on replacing existing F100-PW-220 engines with F100-PW-229 engines, update of Modular Mission Computers, cockpit multifunction displays, communication equipment, Joint Mission Planning Systems, maintenance, construction, repair and return, aircraft tanker support, aircraft ferry services, aircraft and ground support equipment, spare and repair parts, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical, and logistics support, test equipment, site surveys, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $5.3 billion.
...

http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/ ... _11-39.pdf

RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 21 Sep 2011, 22:49
by SpudmanWP
Here is a news article about it.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i= ... =ASI&s=TOP

Several items in the article and above announcement:

1. AESA will be either Raytheon's RACR or Northrop Grumman's SABR.

2. Have Glass 2 upgrades

3. Full DRFM EW suites/pods

4. No BVR missiles at this time, but will get 9x

5. Will get JDAM for the first time.

RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 22 Sep 2011, 03:20
by golden_eagle
I'd say that's a heck of a deal!

Guess all those iPods/iPads/Android's we Americans buy has been profitable for the Gvt of Taiwan...

RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 22 Sep 2011, 23:25
by discofishing
Can anyone put the numbers to the performance gains if the ROCAF Vipers get upgraded with -229 engines?

RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 23 Sep 2011, 07:03
by discofishing
I was always wondering it was possible, on an engineering level, to modify ROCAF F-16s to accept CFTs, just in case the worst happens. I imagine Taiwan will want to strike back in an all out war.

Re: RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 23 Sep 2011, 20:38
by HaveVoid
discofishing wrote:I was always wondering it was possible, on an engineering level, to modify ROCAF F-16s to accept CFTs, just in case the worst happens. I imagine Taiwan will want to strike back in an all out war.


I'd have to imagine, that if the worst happened, that there woulnd't be any way for ROCAF F-16s to get off the ground. The PLAAF has to have complete disruption of Taiwanese airbases as pritity number one in the event of an attack. I'm not sure how much good hitting a few targets on mainland China would be if they have a huge invasion force crossing the straits.

Am I the only one who thinks that the armaments being sold to them are rather low numbers? In any sort of conflict, a few dozen Jdams, WCMD, and AIM-9X won't last all that long :shock: .

Re: RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 23 Sep 2011, 22:45
by That_Engine_Guy
Over 145 PW-229EEPs!?! :cool:

That would keep the F100 line open a while longer.

One should note the article states "Also included are:... ...engineering and design study on replacing existing F100-PW-220 engines with F100-PW-229 engines..."

So the quoted figure only includes the 'study' not the actual act of new engines; but we all know it's possible for the newest F100s to fit into the same space as the oldest F100s. Additionally no inlet/fuselage modifications would be required.

My estimates, considering a reasonable level of spares, would land around $900+ million in US sales. A 20/4 spare ratio; (145+29)*$5.2M=$904.8M.

discofishing wrote:Can anyone put the numbers to the performance gains if the ROCAF Vipers get upgraded with -229 engines?


I know the Block 42s enjoyed the performance increase; made them just as potent as the 50/52s. I think the USAF/PW did try a PW-229 in a B model once at Edwards, but not certain.

Increased acceleration, decreased fuel consumption (less A/B time), increased JEIM repair capabilities, almost 50% increase in TBO.

Needless to say, new PW-229EEP engines for Taiwan would give their 'highly-modernized' A/B Vipers quite a punch.

I guess this will unfold over the next few months/years; by then I hope we have an 'administration' that takes care of our allies as we should, and keeps an eye on all the American Aerospace jobs....

Keep 'em flyin' :thumb:
TEG

RE: Re: RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 23 Sep 2011, 23:29
by discofishing
I'd have to imagine, that if the worst happened, that there woulnd't be any way for ROCAF F-16s to get off the ground. The PLAAF has to have complete disruption of Taiwanese airbases as pritity number one in the event of an attack. I'm not sure how much good hitting a few targets on mainland China would be if they have a huge invasion force crossing the straits.

Am I the only one who thinks that the armaments being sold to them are rather low numbers? In any sort of conflict, a few dozen Jdams, WCMD, and AIM-9X won't last all that long Shocked .


I'm going to assume Taiwan has a VAST intelligence network inside of mainland China and would have fair warning if any attack were to happen.

Re: RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 26 Sep 2011, 10:38
by Conan
HaveVoid wrote:
discofishing wrote:I was always wondering it was possible, on an engineering level, to modify ROCAF F-16s to accept CFTs, just in case the worst happens. I imagine Taiwan will want to strike back in an all out war.


I'd have to imagine, that if the worst happened, that there woulnd't be any way for ROCAF F-16s to get off the ground. The PLAAF has to have complete disruption of Taiwanese airbases as pritity number one in the event of an attack. I'm not sure how much good hitting a few targets on mainland China would be if they have a huge invasion force crossing the straits.

Am I the only one who thinks that the armaments being sold to them are rather low numbers? In any sort of conflict, a few dozen Jdams, WCMD, and AIM-9X won't last all that long :shock: .


You'd also have to imagine that Taiwan makes extensive use of highways as temporary runways and has extensive runway repair capabilities within it's engineer capabilities.

As to the low numbers of weapons, those are just the opening of FMS accounts for those systems. It's normal practice to make further purchases of the same equipment from the same account. Numbers given in initial acquisition requests don't really mean all that much.

Re: RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 27 Dec 2011, 06:21
by ktworld
SpudmanWP wrote:Here is a news article about it.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i= ... =ASI&s=TOP

Several items in the article and above announcement:



4. No BVR missiles at this time, but will get 9x



Taiwan actually already have in their arsenal approx 100 AIM120-C5's and 200 AIM120-C7's, so there is existing BVR capabilities.

RE: Re: RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 29 Dec 2011, 16:28
by Gamera
] A strong Taiwan will easily contain maoist China

I don't think so, Captain.
Taiwan is out-gunned and out-numbered, and the Yanks aren't garrisoned in Taiwan, unlike in Japan and ROK.
In an hot war, the few Singaporean soldiers in Taiwan probably won't fight for Taiwan either.

RE: Re: RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2011, 05:33
by madrat
Has Taiwan planned upgrades to their F-CK-1 to coincide with the F-16A upgrades? They bought way more MICA missiles than they'll ever fire from the 2K's. Maybe they should think about at least integrating them into the F-CK-1 to supplement their artificially restricted to near knife-fighting F-16's. Who could envy their position of facing R-77's? I'm sure the AIM-9X only got approved to head off a purchase from Israel.

Re: RE: Re: RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2011, 12:39
by discofishing
Gamera wrote:] A strong Taiwan will easily contain maoist China

I don't think so, Captain.
Taiwan is out-gunned and out-numbered, and the Yanks aren't garrisoned in Taiwan, unlike in Japan and ROK.
In an hot war, the few Singaporean soldiers in Taiwan probably won't fight for Taiwan either.



My best guess is a "strong" Taiwan can put up enough of a fight to allow US/Allied assistance to arrive. If China goes after Taiwan, it will probably being going after something else too.

Re: RE: Re: RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 06 Feb 2012, 08:21
by ktworld
madrat wrote:Has Taiwan planned upgrades to their F-CK-1 to coincide with the F-16A upgrades? They bought way more MICA missiles than they'll ever fire from the 2K's. Maybe they should think about at least integrating them into the F-CK-1 to supplement their artificially restricted to near knife-fighting F-16's. Who could envy their position of facing R-77's? I'm sure the AIM-9X only got approved to head off a purchase from Israel.


Taiwan is undergoing MLU on one half of their F-CK-1's, and drafting plans on the upgrade of the remainder half. With the upgrade, it will be able to carry 4 BVR missiles (originally 2). It will also enhance the radar/mission computer, as well as adding long range air-to-surface capability....

Why would you consider Taiwan's F-16's as "near knife-fighting" when they currently have about 300 AIM-120 in their arsenal??

Re: RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 10 Feb 2012, 14:47
by kitsch
Conan wrote:
You'd also have to imagine that Taiwan makes extensive use of highways as temporary runways and has extensive runway repair capabilities within it's engineer capabilities.



Hi, all.Long time lurker first time posting.

Indeed there's extensive preparations in Taiwan regarding wartime-use of highway as temporary runways,here's a segment of a program National Geographic channel did
on an exercise showing simulated landing/ rearming of an F-16B Blk 20, F-CK-1,and a Mirage 2000-5 featuring videos from the cockpit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEwZuBhX2AY&feature=related

Also....There're currently 18 airports in operation in Taiwan, about 5 airports per

100,000 square kilometers, makes it the 3rd in airport density around the world.

And if this is not enough...there're around 180~275 abandoned airports littering around the countryside most of them have never been used but still intact.

So from a pratical point of view it would be more efficient to target the plans and other supporting structures rather than the runway itself.

Re: RE: Re: RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 10 Feb 2012, 15:02
by kitsch
madrat wrote:Has Taiwan planned upgrades to their F-CK-1 to coincide with the F-16A upgrades? They bought way more MICA missiles than they'll ever fire from the 2K's. Maybe they should think about at least integrating them into the F-CK-1 to supplement their artificially restricted to near knife-fighting F-16's. Who could envy their position of facing R-77's? I'm sure the AIM-9X only got approved to head off a purchase from Israel.


The reason that they didn't do that was the same as the reason they didn't equipped the original block 20 Vipers with Sky Sword II instead of AIM-7s. Without technical support from the manufacture it's next to impossible to devise a working interface, and after the La Fayette - class frigate debacle coupled with the recent technical difficulties with current Mirage 2000-5s, there's pretty much no chance of ever getting that.

And there're approximately 120 120C5s and some 218 C7s in stock, so I would say the real problem with Taiwanese BVR engagement would lies in how they utilize their E-2Ts (pretty much just UHF transmitters these days...)

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 11 Feb 2012, 16:12
by FlightDreamz
kitsch
I would would say the real problem with Taiwanese BVR engagement would lies in how they utilize their E-2Ts (pretty pretty much just UHF transmitters these days...)

OUCH! That's a pretty harsh criticism of the E-2 old Hawkeye. Even if it isn't an export version of the newer E-2D which still uses some UHF technology by the way see <a href="http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/cutaway-technical-description-e-2d-may-not-look-pretty-but-packs-big-new-bunch-344539/">flightglobal.com/</a>
But your points on technical support from the aircraft manufacturers is well taken. And unfortunately unless the current administration changes its mind, it looks like Taiwan will be between a rock and a hard place for a while. See <a href="http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-15982-postdays-0-postorder-asc.html">U.S. Denies Taiwans Request thread.</a>

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2012, 00:24
by discofishing
White House To Consider F-16 Sale to Taiwan:

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2012 ... ale-Taiwan

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2012, 02:16
by 1st503rdsgt
discofishing wrote:White House To Consider F-16 Sale to Taiwan:

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2012 ... ale-Taiwan


Taiwanese view on the F-16 issue from a few months ago (they seem to have a little trouble telling the difference between the F-16 and the F-CK-1A).



And from yesterday.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 04 Feb 2015, 16:12
by Gamera
Taiwan's F-16s receiving Northrop Grumman fire control radar - 2015/02/03

Northrop Grumman has received its first production order for its new APG-83 Scalable Agile Beam Radar system.

See:
- http://www.airforce-technology.com/news ... 6s-4502540
- http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Securi ... 422947822/

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 01 Apr 2016, 11:42
by Gamera
http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/2016/03/25/taiwan-f-16-upgrade-program-moving-forward/82254960/

Taiwan F-16 Upgrade Program Moving Forward

2016/03/25

TAIPEI – Taiwan’s F-16 fighter aircraft mid-life upgrade program has secured another piece to its modernization effort with the upgrade of the ALR-56M Line Replaceable Unit 5 Analysis Processor to the new configuration under requirements approved by the Taiwan air force.
The $8 million contact was awarded to BAE Systems Information and Electronic Systems Integration Inc., under the U.S. government’s Foreign Military Sales program under the administration of the U.S. Defense Security Cooperation Agency.
Work will performed at Greenlawn, New York, and the U.S. Air Force Life Cycle Management Center, Robins Air Force Base, Georgia, is the contracting activity.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 20 Oct 2018, 11:57
by Gamera
Friday, 19 October 2018:
F-16V. Formerly F-16A.
6626.
ROCAF, based at Chia Yi AB.

About 4 PM, 6626 wearing Lockheed-Martin paint scheme, landed, at Chia Yi AB.

One of first batch of four F-16A/B upgraded to F-16V, and first of these four to be accepted by ROCAF + returned to home base.
The other three scheduled to RTB by end of 2018, and active duty from spring 2019.

6626 completed hardware, software, and structure upgrades in June 2018.
After ground tests, flight tests began in late August 2018.

All 139 F-16A/B scheduled to upgrade at 20-24 planes per year, and to complete by 2022.

ROCAF paint scheme will be repainted at Chia Yi AB and Hua Lien AB.

http://news.ltn.com.tw/news/politics/br ... ws/2586462

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 20 Oct 2018, 14:23
by FlightDreamz
That's good news! Taiwan very badly needs this. Hopefully the Trump administration will be open to selling some NEW F-16Vs to Taiwan (even though China would pitch a fit). Trump already opened up a trade war with China (didn't think he would actually follow through on that campaign promise) so we'll see.....

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 03:49
by weasel1962
If one is going to pi*s off the Chinese. might as well do it the right way which is to sell the F-35, all 300 of them with full training, maintenance and upgrade program all in. Then no issue for the next 30-40 years, rather than having the same issue crop up every 5-10 years. $100 billion contract, that's worth it. If the Taiwanese can't recognise the price of freedom, then too bad.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 14:09
by marsavian
Taiwan to buy up to 66 F-16V fighter jets from US

https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Intern ... ts-from-US

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 22:51
by Patriot
So big chinise Dragon still fear good old 16. Good to know. It's telling. Says a little about chinise airforce capabilities. If little 16 is able to disrupt the balance of power.. And I cant remember if Taiwan made any complains to Russia over Su-35 sale to China

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 01:16
by weasel1962
Patriot wrote:So big chinise Dragon still fear good old 16. Good to know. It's telling. Says a little about chinise airforce capabilities. If little 16 is able to disrupt the balance of power.. And I cant remember if Taiwan made any complains to Russia over Su-35 sale to China


CAATSA sanctions - target hit. No complaint required.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 16:51
by mixelflick
Wow. This is quite the upgrade!

I wasn't aware Taiwan fielded such a capable fleet. No small number of F-16's, advanced AMRAAM's, Mirage 2000's and this F-CK-1 thing. Say, how do you pronounce that? :devil:

I've done a little reading on it. Seems to be along the lines of the PAK "Thunder". It appears to have several advantages though, such as a higher thrust to weight ratio. Has gone through several upgrades too.

I bet it's under-estimated (vastly) by the Chinese. Not the F-16 though. Sounds like there's a healthy amount of respect among the Chinese, and rightfully so..

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 20:11
by weasel1962
The old F-16s have only just started the upgrades. The few mirage 2000s are facing serviceability issues with high maintenance cost. The IDF-CKs are under-powered, uses an old radar that underperforms even after an upgrade and dependent on older ROC missiles.

It doesn't help when PLAAF encirclement flights are so regular that ROC has difficulty scrambling to catch up on the ops tempo that stresses the fleet further.

ROCAF badly needs to recapitalise which has been stymied by local politics, an aggressive Chinese diplomatic counter, and a US reluctance to approve new fighter sales.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 11 Mar 2019, 06:26
by gc
Lightweight fighters with a decent radar, active AAM, DRFM and flown by well-trained pilots executing sound tactics can pose quite a threat to any high end 4+ gen fighters. Just see what happened between India and Pakistan. RoCAF pilots are apparently pretty well-trained and versed in Western BVR tactics. Not too many air forces in the world operate 330 BVRAAM equipped fighters so i wouldn't say that RoCAF cannot put up a good fight. It doesn't have to hold the line for long. The US military maintain some 200 fighters in Japan constantly (excluding TSP F-22/F-35 and additional CSG on WESTPAC deployment) and they are at an extremely high readiness due to their forward deployed state.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 12 Mar 2019, 01:31
by weasel1962
Nice article by Mike as usual.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/03 ... ual-twist/

Taiwan has requested a fleet of new fighters from the United States, but it didn’t specify a type, leaving it up to the U.S. to recommend an option, according to defense officials.


Could just as easily be F-15X.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 12 Mar 2019, 05:17
by Corsair1963
weasel1962 wrote:Nice article by Mike as usual.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/03 ... ual-twist/

Taiwan has requested a fleet of new fighters from the United States, but it didn’t specify a type, leaving it up to the U.S. to recommend an option, according to defense officials.


Could just as easily be F-15X.




I was thinking the same thing. Offer the F-15X to Taiwan. While, giving the USAF more F-35A's.
(WIN-WIN) 8)

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 12 Mar 2019, 12:38
by magnum4469
Corsair1963 wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:Nice article by Mike as usual.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/03 ... ual-twist/

Taiwan has requested a fleet of new fighters from the United States, but it didn’t specify a type, leaving it up to the U.S. to recommend an option, according to defense officials.


Could just as easily be F-15X.




I was thinking the same thing. Offer the F-15X to Taiwan. While, giving the USAF more F-35A's.
(WIN-WIN) 8)


It would be Win-Win for the Taiwanese and Lose-Lose for the USA. Taiwan would get a great fighter that can carry 20+AAMs while the US would be stuck with the turkey that can only carry 4, unless it goes to beast mode, then only 6... https://www.raytheon.com/news/feature/arming_the_f-35 "The F-35 can carry up to two AIM-9X missiles on its wings and four AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles internally."

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 12 Mar 2019, 12:55
by madrat
That turkey gobbled up the competition in every exercise it's been involved.

As far as F-15 goes, it has been getting it's own radar signature reduction enhancement since F-15E first went into production. The F-16 had to catch up from behind with Have Glass iterations. F-15X is getting F-15E caught back up after it fell behind. F-15X leverages on standoff missiles for counter air, while relying on a combination of SPJ and support assets for survival. F-35 is standalone technology, not requiring all the support assets. The weakest link on both is the footprint on the ground. F-35 wins it head to head, but unfortunately even RAND is declaring it the Achilles heel.

That leads me to an OT conclusion. Six generation fighters will need to be tougher to catch on the ground.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 13 Mar 2019, 01:51
by weasel1962
If F-35B, then may not see footprint on the ground.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 13 Mar 2019, 05:15
by Corsair1963
magnum4469 wrote:


I was thinking the same thing. Offer the F-15X to Taiwan. While, giving the USAF more F-35A's.
(WIN-WIN) 8)


It would be Win-Win for the Taiwanese and Lose-Lose for the USA. Taiwan would get a great fighter that can carry 20+AAMs while the US would be stuck with the turkey that can only carry 4, unless it goes to beast mode, then only 6... https://www.raytheon.com/news/feature/arming_the_f-35 "The F-35 can carry up to two AIM-9X missiles on its wings and four AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles internally."[/quote]


I think your on the wrong forum. As you have no idea what you're talking about. Maybe you should consider one like AFM???

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 16 Mar 2019, 13:41
by weasel1962
It's inadequate but better than nothing. Trump approves 66 f-16v for Taiwan.

https://www.realcleardefense.com/2019/0 ... 07081.html

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 20 Mar 2019, 12:21
by gc
https://defence-blog.com/army/taiwan-se ... om-us.html

Not directly related but seems like Taiwan is seizing the opportunity now to submit more weapons request.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 20 Mar 2019, 19:52
by wrightwing
magnum4469 wrote:




It would be Win-Win for the Taiwanese and Lose-Lose for the USA. Taiwan would get a great fighter that can carry 20+AAMs while the US would be stuck with the turkey that can only carry 4, unless it goes to beast mode, then only 6... https://www.raytheon.com/news/feature/arming_the_f-35 "The F-35 can carry up to two AIM-9X missiles on its wings and four AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles internally."

You might want to recheck your numbers. In "Beast Mode" the F-35 can carry 14 AIM-120 (and 16 once the internal carry goes to 6) + 2 AIM-9X. Of course once SACM comes on line, internal carriage goes to 12 AAMs. In any event, there's no scenario where the F-15 is going to be the superior platform. There's never been a scenario in the history of aerial combat, where there were enough targets to be able to use 22 AAMs.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 21 Mar 2019, 02:47
by Corsair1963
wrightwing wrote:
magnum4469 wrote:




It would be Win-Win for the Taiwanese and Lose-Lose for the USA. Taiwan would get a great fighter that can carry 20+AAMs while the US would be stuck with the turkey that can only carry 4, unless it goes to beast mode, then only 6... https://www.raytheon.com/news/feature/arming_the_f-35 "The F-35 can carry up to two AIM-9X missiles on its wings and four AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles internally."

You might want to recheck your numbers. In "Beast Mode" the F-35 can carry 14 AIM-120 (and 16 once the internal carry goes to 6) + 2 AIM-9X. Of course once SACM comes on line, internal carriage goes to 12 AAMs. In any event, there's no scenario where the F-15 is going to be the superior platform. There's never been a scenario in the history of aerial combat, where there were enough targets to be able to use 22 AAMs.


Honestly, in the real world it's rare to carry more than eight......

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 21 Mar 2019, 15:04
by mixelflick
This is a great point and one that needs some fleshing out..

A big selling point by Boeing is that the F-15EX can carry up to 22 AAM's. But really, how practical is that? Even assuming no drop tanks and instead CFT's, the drag index of those AAM's has to be enormous, bringing down it's range. Oops, there goes the F-15EX "persistence" argument.

So now we have a fighter with a huge radar signature, mediocre range and reduced speed as Taiwan's premiere fighter. They'll be up against significantly upgraded J-16's and SU-35's, and that doesn't include the J-20. If I'm not mistaken the J-15 and SU-35 have reduced signatures of their own, and the J-20 as we know is LO, if not VLO.

It's not going to be cheap, either. Taiwan will have to convert to a whole new airframe and associated airfield, hangar etc changes. The cost per flight hour will be a lot more than her F-16's too.

I suppose if they get enough airborne they can lumber along and using their big radars see the armada arrayed against them, firing as many AMRAAM's as possible at the massive Chinese formations. Then close the distance and try to clean up with 9x shots. The problem is that the survivors probably won't have an airfield to egress to.

The F-16V buy will suffer from the same issues, and probably be a lot less effective to boot. The AESA it has is no slouch, but doesn't really compare to the F-15X's monster AESA, coupled with the fastest mission computer yet fielded. I dunno. Politics won't allow Taiwan to get F-35's, and that's unfortunate. Because it's really the only aircraft that could give them a fighting chance vs. a Chinese onslaught...

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 21 Mar 2019, 16:29
by marsavian
So now we have a fighter with a huge radar signature


The F-16 has an order of magnitude lower frontal RCS than F-15, around 1 sq m which more or less compensates for its smaller AESA when facing other fighters. As 4th gen fighters go it is a pretty well rounded design especially the F-16V.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2019, 06:28
by gc
Proposed ROCAF F-16V to include CFTs and IRST.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... E0Oqihua4X

AESA, IRST and RWR to detect stealthy J-20/J-31, CFT to free up weapons station for up to 8 AAMs. Not bad an Air Superiority fighter. It will be good if the US can procure anti-ship JSMs for these F-16Vs and to make it a complete A2/AD package that can counter China's air and naval power.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2019, 09:37
by weasel1962
The Taiwanese use harps on their F-16s.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2019, 11:43
by gc
weasel1962 wrote:The Taiwanese use harps on their F-16s.


Yep but they lack the range and survivability of the JSM

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2019, 15:31
by weasel1962
gc wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:The Taiwanese use harps on their F-16s.


Yep but they lack the range and survivability of the JSM


Not the harps the Taiwanese use.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2019, 11:23
by gc
Rocaf has confirmed they are getting new F-16Vs. And a new IRST for them.

http://alert5.com/2019/08/16/rocaf-has- ... new-f-16s/
https://alert5.com/2019/08/16/the-myste ... -at-tadte/

FADCB941-3723-4D6A-8D22-BB2E42579D2E.jpeg

06AE8687-DF92-448E-8518-39F45BA4B3BF.jpeg

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2019, 11:43
by Boman
Nice! But until Washington confirms they have sold new F-16's I wouldn't take this to be true just yet :wink:

EDIT: I stand corrected - I see that Washington post is also reporting the same, much to China's irritation. Shouldn't be long before formal government notice is given with a delivery timeline to follow.

Looks like the F-16 might reach 5000 fighters sold grand total yet :twisted:

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 22 Aug 2019, 17:54
by basher54321

The ongoing turmoil between the U.S. and China will have an impact back home in Greenville as $8 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets is expected to be produced at the industrial complex formerly known as the Donaldson Center and sold to Taiwan.

Today, U.S. Sen. Lindsey Graham confirmed that 66 jets will be produced at Greenville's Lockheed Martin plant, following the announcement by President Donald Trump's administration that a deal with Taiwan had been cleared.

The final deal must be approved by Congress, which to this point has expressed bipartisan support.


https://eu.greenvilleonline.com/story/n ... 071718001/

via FMS


This proposed sale is consistent with U.S. law and policy as expressed in Public Law 96-8

This proposed sale serves U.S. national, economic, and security interests by supporting the recipient’s continuing efforts to modernize its armed forces and to maintain a credible defensive capability. The proposed sale will help improve the security of the recipient and assist in maintaining political stability, military balance, and economic progress in the region.

This proposed sale will contribute to the recipient’s capability to provide for the defense of its airspace, regional security, and interoperability with the United States. The recipient currently operates the F-16A/B. The recipient will have no difficulty absorbing this aircraft and services into its arms forces.

The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region


Edit: seems they are GE-F110 Block 70s

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 23 Aug 2019, 00:49
by weasel1962
The proximity to China means engine performance isn't that critical. What's interesting about the deal:

(a) They're competing JHMCS II v Scorpion Hobit.
(b) the Crypto comsec bells and whistles
(c) ALE-50
(d) No SDBs <- Significantly more firepower, instead LJDAMs <- moving target capability presumably against vessels = no more expensive harpoons.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 23 Aug 2019, 08:33
by jacarlsen
Does anybody know who is doing the modification. Would be fun to get a job with this big a project.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 23 Aug 2019, 09:27
by gc
China saying the new F-16V are useless while saying it harms China's national security. Isn't that self-contradictory?

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/militar ... 6-fighters

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 23 Aug 2019, 16:02
by Gamera
The shopping lists I've seen so far, tend to list 66 F-16C/D, but not how many F-16C and F-16D.
I'm guessing 62 F-16C and 4 F-16D.

The lists tend to list 66 aircraft, and 75 sets of engines or whatever, with nine sets as spares: 66 + 9 =75.

But they include 70 sets of NVGs.
Presuming one set of NVG per cockpit, and no spare, then 62 x 1 set for 62 F-16C + (4 x 2 =) 8 sets for 4 F-16D = 70 sets.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 10 Dec 2019, 09:33
by gc
https://alert5.com/2019/12/10/plaaf-j-1 ... rike-2015/

Seems like PLAAF J-11s placed too much emphasis on 1 v 1 BFMs. They did well in BFMs but poorly in 2 v 2 and more complex fighter sweep missions against Thai Gripens. Thats surely worrying for them as the J-11 make up the bulk of their air superiority fighter force and is supposedly superior with its big radar and large weapons load. They better buck up or they would stand no chance against 200+ ROCAF F-16Vs.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 10 Dec 2019, 10:07
by weasel1962
Falcon Strike 2015 happened 4 years ago. Falcon strike 2019 was held in Aug this year. Falcon strike 2015 was held from Nov 12th to 30th (coinciding with the exercise dates in the alert 5 pics which are from Nov 17th, 1st day to Nov 25th).

The PLAAF unit that participated in Falcon Strike 2015 was the then 6th regiment of the 2 fighter division. This unit was then equipped with Su-27SKs, not J-11s, with serials 11X3X. That unit is now equipped with Su-35s today. Export Su-27SK including those delivered to China in 1992 were equipped with the original N001 radar which was 80s tech. J-11As which were the follow on licensed production units may have been equipped with the slightly improved N001V/VE radars but the Chinese stopped assembly of this variant after only 90-105 units, choosing to purchase Su-30MKK/MK2s with the again improved N001VEP radar, and building their local copies with Chinese radars under the designation J-11B.

Its 27 years since 1st delivery of the Su-27SK and the original Su-27s had a shelf life of ~20 years. These have been reported to be retired from PLAAF service.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 10 Dec 2019, 12:35
by hornetfinn
Interesting but not really surprising results. Su-27 and J-11A (not much difference AFAIK) use archaic sensors and weapons system along with communications and navigation systems. Even if N001 radar is large and fairly powerful, it has rather poor performance and much smaller RCS of Gripen make things even worse. Gripen does definitely have advantage in BVR combat as it has fairly modern radar with superior all-around performance to N001. Weapons system is also much more advanced and has better weapons available.

Interesting is that Su-27/J-11 were so much better in 1-on-1 WVR combat. It seems like R-73 and HMS is pretty good combo against what Thai Gripens carry. I've seen Thai Gripens with AIM-9Ms and IRIS-T missiles. If they used IRIS-T, then the results are bit surprising even if they lacked HMS (not sure if they had them then or not). Maybe the Chinese pilots were just plain better at WVR distances. Of course in real fight the Gripens would've had upper hand due to BVR dominance.

Not surprising that Thai Gripens now carry IRIS-T and Cobra HMD and PLAAF is getting Su-30/35 and updated Chinese Su-27 variants along with J-20 and new missiles.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 10 Dec 2019, 14:41
by gc
Thanks for the information. These Flankers has such a short service life compared to F-15s. Wonder how the APG-63(v)3 equipped FLANG Eagles faired against Thai Gripens during the Cope Tiger 2012 exercise.

https://www.airforcemag.com/article/0612cope/

https://www.125fw.ang.af.mil/News/Artic ... hter-wing/

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2019, 02:02
by weasel1962
Decided to translate the pics. Thought this may be useful.

Slide 1: Effective attack tally count
Date Topic Successful attack count: Chinese Thai
Nov 17 Basic combat maneuvers 16 / 0
Nov 18 Basic combat maneuvers 9 / 1
Nov 19 Preparations
Nov 20 2 x 2 combat 3 / 19
Nov 23 Joint air defence 1 / 9
Nov 24 Joint air defence 2 / 9
Nov 25 Joint air defence 3 / 4

Slide 2: Distance of successful engagement
Chinese: 86% <30km, 14% 30-50km
Thai: 12% <30km, 64% 30-50km, 24% 50+km

Slide 3: Notes from joint air defence
1. Pilots judgment of threats were not comprehensive enough, paid more attention to the direct/forward threat, did not pay attention to threats from the side.
2. Coordination between attack aircraft and sweep aircraft was not with sufficient understanding, aircraft lost awareness, lost control over battlefield awareness.
3. Insufficient pilot's in depth research into avoiding missiles, missile avoidance success was due machine, was not accurate enough in judging method effectiveness of avoiding missiles with different ranges.

Slide 4: Joint air defence combat
1. When the Chinese defended and thais attacked, the Chinese had difficulty identifying the sweep aircraft as threats, had difficulty deciding counter strategy, in most circumstances, shot down by the sweep aircraft.
2. When the Chinese attacked and Thais defended, the Chinese were effective in terms of direction of attack, but had difficulty breaching the Thai line of defence, when the Thais attacked the sweep aircraft, the attack aircraft had difficulty getting a shot opportunity.
3. During mixed combat, defence effectiveness was weak. Had difficulty to make the sweep aircraft into a threat, attack aircraft could, under protection of Gripens, able to fight at low altitudes

Slide 5: Notes from 2v2 combat
1. Insufficient judgment against threats
2. Insufficient avoidance action
3. Fire control and weapons system performance vis Thai was generationally weaker
4. Had limited battlefield awareness

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2019, 10:03
by hornetfinn
Great work weasel1962! Thank you a lot for that! :D

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2019, 10:08
by hornetfinn
I think that shows just how important avionics upgrades are. Taiwanese upgrade of their F-16A/Bs will make them far more capable aircraft and something that should have pretty good chance against most aircraft in Chinese inventory.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2019, 00:53
by weasel1962
Thanks HornetFinn with Season Greetings, probably followed by a Merry White Christmas where you're located!

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2019, 07:56
by hornetfinn
Oh, thank you weasel1962 and same to you! Too bad we won't be getting White Christmas this year even up here north (Finland).

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2020, 22:03
by marsavian
How Taiwan's fighter pilots, and its most advanced jets, keep watch on China around the clock

https://www.businessinsider.com/on-taiw ... ?r=US&IR=T

Surrounded by farmland near the coast, the Chiayi air base is Taiwan's first to be equipped with F-16Vs, which carry upgraded radars, avionics and will eventually field new air-to-air missiles.

Chiayi's F-16 pilots are on call around the clock to see off the Chinese jets that regularly try to probe the airspace of the democratic island China claims as its territory, to be taken by force if needed.

Yen has intercepted Chinese H-6 bombers and J-11 fighters, and said he is confident in Taiwan's defense forces.

"I believe that our performance can match the abilities of the mainland's newest J-10 and J-11 fighters," Yen said.

Last year, the United States approved an $8 billion sale of 66 new Lockheed Martin F-16 fighters and 75 General Electric engines, as well as other systems.

Taiwan is also upgrading its existing 144 F-16 A/B jets into the more advanced F-16V variant. That is expected to be complete by 2022. About 15 are already in service at Chiayi.



Image

Image

Image

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 08 Feb 2020, 20:32
by marsavian
Following on from viewtopic.php?p=431248#p431248

PLAAF Senior Pilot Reveals Poor Performance in Joint Exercise With RTAF

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... e-rtaf?amp

Li is described as one of the most experienced Sukhoi Su-27SK/J-11A pilots in the PLAAF with some 3,200 hours in fast jets, much of them in the Russian-made Sukhoi. His revelations are unprecedented and are assessed by US intelligence as demonstrating a growing concern within the officer corps over deficiencies with the training regime for the PLAAF’s pilot cadre.

These first exercises ran at Korat Royal Thai Air Force Base and showed the advantages of the smaller and more technologically-advanced Gripen over the Russian Sukhoi. Several of Li’s summations from the exercise are:

The JAS-39 performance was at its worst inside the within visual range (WVR) envelope. Over a two-day period, PLAAF pilots shot down 25 Gripens at a loss of only one Su-27. The Su-27 has an advantage over the performance of the JAS-39 due to its more powerful Salyut AL-31F engines, and the Swedish aircraft was handicapped in that it was equipped with the older-generation AIM-9L Sidewinder instead of the current-generation Diehl IRIS-T missile.

Once the exercise transitioned to beyond visual range (BVR) combat, the superiority of the JAS-39 became readily apparent. The Swedish aircraft shot down 41 Su-27s over a period of four days with a loss of only nine JAS-39s.

The Su-27s flown by the PLAAF were operating with a modified version of the NIIP N001 radar that could fire the Vympel RVV-AE active-homing air-to-air missile (AAM). But its effective detection range was only 120km in comparison with the JAS-39’s Ericsson PS-05/A at 160km. The Gripen’s Raytheon AIM-120 AAM also outranged the RVV-AE at 80km versus only 50 km for the Russian missile.

Li stated that the JAS-39C/D’s much smaller radar cross-section (RCS) at 1.5-2.0 m2 was a major factor, as the much larger Su-27 is easier to detect at 12 sq miles. The JAS-39 can also ripple-fire up to four AIM-120s simultaneously but the Su-27 can fire only one RVV-AE at a time.

Gripen achieved 88 percent of its kills at 19 miles or greater, while the Su-27 had just 14 percent of its kills at this range. The RTAF also had 10 kills at a distance of more than 31 miles compared with zero long-distance kills by the Su-27.

In subsequent exercises the PLAAF fared better by sending the Chengdu J-10A - and then in 2019 the J-10C - in place of the Su-27. Li pointed out that the J-10C was more of a match for the JAS-39C/D in that “its active array radar significantly improves detection distance and multi-target attack capability, the DSI (divertless) air intake of the J-10C reduces the radar intercept area while the PL-15 missile increases the range, making it an over-the-horizon platform.”

Li also commented that the next-generation version of the Gripen, the JAS-39E, is likely to feature even more advanced combat performance. His interest in the aircraft parallels a larger body of analysis within the PLA intelligence community that has had a fixation on the design and development of the Gripen as a template for PRC industry to follow.


The Thai Gripen C had centerline fuel tanks in this exercise

https://mobile.twitter.com/gripennews/s ... 9833841664

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 10 Feb 2020, 01:38
by weasel1962
Note that of ROCAF's main fighters, the Mirage 2000 spots a old RDY radar and the IDF spots an even older GD-53 which was last upgraded in 2001. Even the F-16s will only complete the full AESA upgrade in 2022 and those are 19-23 years old. Not exactly reassuring.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2020, 00:21
by steve2267
I'm a bit surprised the ROCAF opted for Block 70s instead of 72s. With the 72s they would have kept logistics to all P&W. And if they kept buying -229EEP motors..., they could upgrade the -20s to -229EEPs as well. Am guessing that a Blk 20 with a -229EEP might redefine "monster"?

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2020, 04:43
by weasel1962
Putting an engine on an airframe not originally designed for it (even with buffers), creates additional stresses e.g. cracks that could ironically reduce airframe life instead. They would have considered all this before deciding on the engine.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2020, 17:41
by f119doctor
One advantage that the PW-229 has is that it was designed as a drop in replacement for the PW-220 engine in small mouth intake F-16s. The only airframe modification required was a doubler added to the front engine mount to handle the increased engine weight and retain the full 9 g capability.

Of course, the greater T/W of this combination of early airframes and -229 engine enables more sustained G load capability that could reduce the fatigue life of the airframe. A Block 5 - 25 F-16 with the -229 has eye watering performance. A Block 15 B model could sustain more than 7 Gs while still accelerating thru 800 KCAS at Sea level conditions during -229 flight test.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2020, 17:56
by sprstdlyscottsmn
f119doctor wrote: A Block 15 B model could sustain more than 7 Gs while still accelerating thru 800 KCAS at Sea level conditions during -229 flight test.

good lord...

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2020, 18:07
by f119doctor
It might have been a Block 10 B model, definitely an early light weight airframe. It did not have the front engine mount beef up doubler, so they had a 7 g limit. At Max AB sea level testing off of Pt Mugu, the pilot couldn’t keep it below the 800 KCAS redline pulling to the 7 g limit.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2020, 19:12
by basher54321
Excellent :applause:

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2020, 19:31
by steve2267
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
f119doctor wrote: A Block 15 B model could sustain more than 7 Gs while still accelerating thru 800 KCAS at Sea level conditions during -229 flight test.

good lord...


That's what I thought.

I used to think "F-16 MLU" huh... ok, they did a mid-life upgrade. Big deal. I didn't realize until this week that an MLU is equivalent to a Blk50 avionics wise.

Throwing PW-229's into an MLU, with the NG APG-83 SABR radar upgrades they have ordered would make one helluva Viper. Just not sure how long it would last. (Might be a johnwill question.)

Could you imagine Taiwan putting PW-229's in all it's MLU birds (Blk 20s?) (which I think are also getting the APG-83?) and leavening the whole mix with 2-3 F-35 squadrons to play quarterback? Mother of gawd that would piss the Chinese CCP off, and would seem to really give the PLA airforce fits...

F-35 all MADL'd together... LINK16'd to Blk20-229 Vipers with APG-83. Holy crap.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2020, 19:40
by steve2267
MLU-229 birds might need a SLEP. Still, prolly hellalot cheaper than buying new aircraft, and just buying new birds is a big deal for the ROC. So might as well maximize what you got.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2020, 02:56
by F16VIPER
Hi. Does anyone know what are the visible external differences between the original RoCAF Block 20 and the upgraded F-16Vs.
Thank you in advance

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2020, 09:02
by Boman
Essentially non. All upgrades are internal.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2020, 11:09
by weasel1962
CFT?

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2020, 11:47
by Bjorn
Nope, these are standard block 30/32 airframes and therefore not suitable to carry those.

Greets,

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2020, 14:40
by basher54321
weasel1962 wrote:CFT?


I expect CFTs will only ever be seen (operationally) on those F-16s built with the relevant structural changes to deal with extra weight etc - so Blocks 50+ / 52+ / 60 / 70 / 72