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Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2019, 15:31
by weasel1962
gc wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:The Taiwanese use harps on their F-16s.

Yep but they lack the range and survivability of the JSM

Not the harps the Taiwanese use.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2019, 11:23
by gc
Rocaf has confirmed they are getting new F-16Vs. And a new IRST for them. ... new-f-16s/ ... -at-tadte/



Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2019, 11:43
by Boman
Nice! But until Washington confirms they have sold new F-16's I wouldn't take this to be true just yet :wink:

EDIT: I stand corrected - I see that Washington post is also reporting the same, much to China's irritation. Shouldn't be long before formal government notice is given with a delivery timeline to follow.

Looks like the F-16 might reach 5000 fighters sold grand total yet :twisted:

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 22 Aug 2019, 17:54
by basher54321

The ongoing turmoil between the U.S. and China will have an impact back home in Greenville as $8 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets is expected to be produced at the industrial complex formerly known as the Donaldson Center and sold to Taiwan.

Today, U.S. Sen. Lindsey Graham confirmed that 66 jets will be produced at Greenville's Lockheed Martin plant, following the announcement by President Donald Trump's administration that a deal with Taiwan had been cleared.

The final deal must be approved by Congress, which to this point has expressed bipartisan support. ... 071718001/

via FMS

This proposed sale is consistent with U.S. law and policy as expressed in Public Law 96-8

This proposed sale serves U.S. national, economic, and security interests by supporting the recipient’s continuing efforts to modernize its armed forces and to maintain a credible defensive capability. The proposed sale will help improve the security of the recipient and assist in maintaining political stability, military balance, and economic progress in the region.

This proposed sale will contribute to the recipient’s capability to provide for the defense of its airspace, regional security, and interoperability with the United States. The recipient currently operates the F-16A/B. The recipient will have no difficulty absorbing this aircraft and services into its arms forces.

The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region

Edit: seems they are GE-F110 Block 70s

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 23 Aug 2019, 00:49
by weasel1962
The proximity to China means engine performance isn't that critical. What's interesting about the deal:

(a) They're competing JHMCS II v Scorpion Hobit.
(b) the Crypto comsec bells and whistles
(c) ALE-50
(d) No SDBs <- Significantly more firepower, instead LJDAMs <- moving target capability presumably against vessels = no more expensive harpoons.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 23 Aug 2019, 08:33
by jacarlsen
Does anybody know who is doing the modification. Would be fun to get a job with this big a project.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 23 Aug 2019, 09:27
by gc
China saying the new F-16V are useless while saying it harms China's national security. Isn't that self-contradictory? ... 6-fighters

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 23 Aug 2019, 16:02
by Gamera
The shopping lists I've seen so far, tend to list 66 F-16C/D, but not how many F-16C and F-16D.
I'm guessing 62 F-16C and 4 F-16D.

The lists tend to list 66 aircraft, and 75 sets of engines or whatever, with nine sets as spares: 66 + 9 =75.

But they include 70 sets of NVGs.
Presuming one set of NVG per cockpit, and no spare, then 62 x 1 set for 62 F-16C + (4 x 2 =) 8 sets for 4 F-16D = 70 sets.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 10 Dec 2019, 09:33
by gc ... rike-2015/

Seems like PLAAF J-11s placed too much emphasis on 1 v 1 BFMs. They did well in BFMs but poorly in 2 v 2 and more complex fighter sweep missions against Thai Gripens. Thats surely worrying for them as the J-11 make up the bulk of their air superiority fighter force and is supposedly superior with its big radar and large weapons load. They better buck up or they would stand no chance against 200+ ROCAF F-16Vs.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 10 Dec 2019, 10:07
by weasel1962
Falcon Strike 2015 happened 4 years ago. Falcon strike 2019 was held in Aug this year. Falcon strike 2015 was held from Nov 12th to 30th (coinciding with the exercise dates in the alert 5 pics which are from Nov 17th, 1st day to Nov 25th).

The PLAAF unit that participated in Falcon Strike 2015 was the then 6th regiment of the 2 fighter division. This unit was then equipped with Su-27SKs, not J-11s, with serials 11X3X. That unit is now equipped with Su-35s today. Export Su-27SK including those delivered to China in 1992 were equipped with the original N001 radar which was 80s tech. J-11As which were the follow on licensed production units may have been equipped with the slightly improved N001V/VE radars but the Chinese stopped assembly of this variant after only 90-105 units, choosing to purchase Su-30MKK/MK2s with the again improved N001VEP radar, and building their local copies with Chinese radars under the designation J-11B.

Its 27 years since 1st delivery of the Su-27SK and the original Su-27s had a shelf life of ~20 years. These have been reported to be retired from PLAAF service.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 10 Dec 2019, 12:35
by hornetfinn
Interesting but not really surprising results. Su-27 and J-11A (not much difference AFAIK) use archaic sensors and weapons system along with communications and navigation systems. Even if N001 radar is large and fairly powerful, it has rather poor performance and much smaller RCS of Gripen make things even worse. Gripen does definitely have advantage in BVR combat as it has fairly modern radar with superior all-around performance to N001. Weapons system is also much more advanced and has better weapons available.

Interesting is that Su-27/J-11 were so much better in 1-on-1 WVR combat. It seems like R-73 and HMS is pretty good combo against what Thai Gripens carry. I've seen Thai Gripens with AIM-9Ms and IRIS-T missiles. If they used IRIS-T, then the results are bit surprising even if they lacked HMS (not sure if they had them then or not). Maybe the Chinese pilots were just plain better at WVR distances. Of course in real fight the Gripens would've had upper hand due to BVR dominance.

Not surprising that Thai Gripens now carry IRIS-T and Cobra HMD and PLAAF is getting Su-30/35 and updated Chinese Su-27 variants along with J-20 and new missiles.

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 10 Dec 2019, 14:41
by gc
Thanks for the information. These Flankers has such a short service life compared to F-15s. Wonder how the APG-63(v)3 equipped FLANG Eagles faired against Thai Gripens during the Cope Tiger 2012 exercise. ... hter-wing/

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2019, 02:02
by weasel1962
Decided to translate the pics. Thought this may be useful.

Slide 1: Effective attack tally count
Date Topic Successful attack count: Chinese Thai
Nov 17 Basic combat maneuvers 16 / 0
Nov 18 Basic combat maneuvers 9 / 1
Nov 19 Preparations
Nov 20 2 x 2 combat 3 / 19
Nov 23 Joint air defence 1 / 9
Nov 24 Joint air defence 2 / 9
Nov 25 Joint air defence 3 / 4

Slide 2: Distance of successful engagement
Chinese: 86% <30km, 14% 30-50km
Thai: 12% <30km, 64% 30-50km, 24% 50+km

Slide 3: Notes from joint air defence
1. Pilots judgment of threats were not comprehensive enough, paid more attention to the direct/forward threat, did not pay attention to threats from the side.
2. Coordination between attack aircraft and sweep aircraft was not with sufficient understanding, aircraft lost awareness, lost control over battlefield awareness.
3. Insufficient pilot's in depth research into avoiding missiles, missile avoidance success was due machine, was not accurate enough in judging method effectiveness of avoiding missiles with different ranges.

Slide 4: Joint air defence combat
1. When the Chinese defended and thais attacked, the Chinese had difficulty identifying the sweep aircraft as threats, had difficulty deciding counter strategy, in most circumstances, shot down by the sweep aircraft.
2. When the Chinese attacked and Thais defended, the Chinese were effective in terms of direction of attack, but had difficulty breaching the Thai line of defence, when the Thais attacked the sweep aircraft, the attack aircraft had difficulty getting a shot opportunity.
3. During mixed combat, defence effectiveness was weak. Had difficulty to make the sweep aircraft into a threat, attack aircraft could, under protection of Gripens, able to fight at low altitudes

Slide 5: Notes from 2v2 combat
1. Insufficient judgment against threats
2. Insufficient avoidance action
3. Fire control and weapons system performance vis Thai was generationally weaker
4. Had limited battlefield awareness

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2019, 10:03
by hornetfinn
Great work weasel1962! Thank you a lot for that! :D

Re: Taiwan to upgrade 145 F16 A/B

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2019, 10:08
by hornetfinn
I think that shows just how important avionics upgrades are. Taiwanese upgrade of their F-16A/Bs will make them far more capable aircraft and something that should have pretty good chance against most aircraft in Chinese inventory.