PIDS Questions

Unread postPosted: 05 Apr 2010, 02:54
by tundra04
Good evening! I am in the process of gathering details for an upcoming 1/48th scale Tamiya F-16 Block 30 project and have some questions concerning the PIDS. The plane I plan on doing is from the Alabama ANG, 86-0346. I know that the PIDS was carried on the birds with only two dispensers, generally fiscal year 86 and 87 but...

1.) Which way did the dispensers on the PIDS, face? Towards the center-line or away from the jet? I ask because if you look at the picture of 87-0217, it looks like the dispenser, if that's a PIDS on the right wing, faces towards the center-line.

2.) Was the PIDS used only with specific weapons? Example, only GBU-12s, or only GBU-31s?

3.) Would only one PIDS be used at a time?

I tried to do some research on this site before posting, but I only confused myself more.

Thanks.

Unread postPosted: 05 Apr 2010, 11:29
by Boman
FY87 Vipers have the extra chaff/flare dispensers, so they don't need the PIDS. Hence you are most likely to find it on FY86 and older Vipers.

The anser to your questions:
1) Always outwards - away from the centerline. You do not want a flare to by any chance ignite the fueltanks, however unlikelly this may seem.

2) Initially, you could not use JDAM's on PIDS as they lacked some software needed. This has however changed, and you can now load anything on a PIDS pylon.

3) ANG usually only carries 1 PIDS and 1 normal pylon at a time. Some NATO forces - Denmark, Norway, The Netherlands - have been seen carrying PIDS on both sides. Norway has 1 PIDS and 1 EPIDS these days.

Unread postPosted: 06 Apr 2010, 01:46
by tundra04
Boman,

Thanks for the information. When you say "Fiscal Year 87", you are talking about jets that have tail numbers that start with 87-XXXX, correct? If so, I've seen pictures of an 87 bird with the PIDS, specifically CO ANG 87-254 according to the tail. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to wrap my head around this one. Your time and input are greatly appreciated!

Unread postPosted: 06 Apr 2010, 14:11
by Vader7043
Normally units fly the PIDS-3 pylon on STA#7 with the dispensers outboard. The pylon can be configured to fly on either STA# 3 or 7. Boman is correct in that they were initially dumb pylons and not JDAM capable. I think they've all been modified to the 1760 standard to carry smart weapons. Also, they are chaff only. I can't speak for FMS jets, but every U.S. jet I've ever seen with a PIDS has "chaff only" stenciled right on the pylon. As for the tails #s, all wide mouth F-16s (generally 87- up) have 4 chaff/flare dispensers. I can't recall ever seeing a small mouth 87 model. Just because they're wide mouth does not mean they cannot carry PIDS. It's just unusual to see that configuration.

Unread postPosted: 06 Apr 2010, 15:20
by Boman
Vader, small mouth vs. wide mouth has to do with engine - GE vs. PW, ie Block 30 vs 32 etc. - and nothing to do with the FY. Both types were made in FY87.

Tundra - answer is yes, FY87 are the tail numbers that start with AF87-xxxx

Thanks for the heads up on the FY87 and PIDS, Vader - I have not seen any FY87 with pids yet.

As for JDAM's on PIDS pylons, here is photo evidence for ya'
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-12267.html

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2010, 05:05
by Roscoe
The ANG AFRES Test Center (AATC) is using flares in the pylons, but the flare type is limited. A Mod is underway that will lift that restriction but limit the number of flares a PIDS bucket can carry.

As for only "needing" to carry one, that is due to the limited numbers of PIDS available, not becasue of the extra 2 buckets that were introduced to the later jets. Ask any pilot and he'll say you can never have too many chaff or flare rounds. Two PIDS would be preferred.

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2010, 13:35
by ViperDude
To add my 2 cents. Originally the PIDS-3 (Non-1760) could have chaff/Flare buckets mounted facing inboard or outboard on any pre-1986 Blk 25/30/32 and below. Then it was restricted to facing outboard only. All USAF PIDS-3's have been upgraded to a PIDSU configuration which added smart weapon capability (1760). PIDSU's are only authorized 1 per aircraft so that's why you only carry one.

~ViperDude~

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2010, 15:45
by Boman
Thanks ViperDude - very interesting :-)

Unread postPosted: 19 Apr 2010, 03:44
by tacts
Early on the block 30's in AFRAC carried two pids with chaff only. Flare was loaded on the fuselage. So you need to pick the date and unit to have the right answer.

Unread postPosted: 19 Apr 2010, 04:32
by thunder9
Any 2W1's (or even better, olf 462's) out there that have ever seen any PIDS variant with the dispensers facing to the right? PIDS/PIDSU/PIDS-3 all have the dispensers facing left. I guess the question of facing inboard/outboard depends on which station (3 or 7) that the PIDS is bolted to. Oh, the 301 FW will hang PIDS on bother 3 & 7 on occasion. Usuually it's just PIDS on one side & WWP on the other due to the limited number of PIDS.

-J

Re: PIDS Questions

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2018, 06:39
by ruderamronbo
FM tail code Viper at Hill for Combat Hammer. They've probably been fielded for a while but the first time I've seen one. A recent audio posted of Viper tests over Nellis make it clear they are carrying the pylons because they talk about having 200+ chaff dispenses left. And yes, she's cute :D

https://www.facebook.com/388fw/photos/p ... =3&theater

Re: PIDS Questions

Unread postPosted: 13 Aug 2018, 08:29
by planehazza
Would PIDS be mainly for combat only, where as many physical countermeasures as possible would be loaded, or would you ever see Aggressors/Adversaries fitted with them, particular of FY86?

Re: PIDS Questions

Unread postPosted: 13 Aug 2018, 22:15
by dragracingmaniac
You would not see them on any aircraft until the early to mid-'90's. As for being loaded on aggressor jets, I don't know.

Re: PIDS Questions

Unread postPosted: 13 Aug 2018, 23:50
by planehazza
dragracingmaniac wrote:You would not see them on any aircraft until the early to mid-'90's. As for being loaded on aggressor jets, I don't know.

Sorry, by FY86 I meant an airframe that was built then. What I mean is would an '86 block 30 likely have PIDS equipped in 2017/18?

On a similar note, would USAF aggressors equip ALE-50 decoy?

I'm modelling a relatively heavily loaded aggressor, consisting of AN/ALQ 188, 370gal x2, CATM-120 x2, CATM-9M, TCTS pod, Sniper pod, and possibly also the ALE 50 depending on the answer to my question above.

Thanks!

Re: PIDS Questions

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 00:07
by dragracingmaniac
planehazza wrote:Sorry, by FY86 I meant an airframe that was built then. What I mean is would an '86 block 30 likely have PIDS equipped in 2017/18?

On a similar note, would USAF aggressors equip ALE-50 decoy?


Don't know about block 30's, haven't worked them in an operational environment in 25 years. I've never seen an ALE-50 equipped aggressor, that don't mean they don't exist, though.

Re: PIDS Questions

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 08:17
by MVSGas
planehazza,
If you to to Goggle, click on the image tab, and type in:
F-16 site:nellis.af.mil
or
F-16 site:eielson.af.mil
or
aggressors site:.mil

By doing that you should see plenty of examples. Note that targeting pods are rare, PIDS and ALE-50 are never seen. Can the aircraft carry them? I do not know. But if they do, must not be in the aggressor role and the would make sense. It make since because AFAIK, they are suppose to imitate other air forces tactics, and I think USAF and its allies are the only ones using ALE-50. As for the pids and TGP, don't know they are not carried in a regular basis. My guess is related to availability, need for the mission, weight and drag, etc.

Re: PIDS Questions

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 10:12
by planehazza
Thanks, I'll check out those sites.

Regarding Sniper, I totally agree that fitting them is rare, but #86-0314 has been seen with it, here:

http://www.aeroresource.co.uk/wp-conten ... 8Y0882.jpg

I like that the aggressor has carried it, and I like the pod, so I'm modelling it :) PIDS and ALE-50 are things I haven't yet seen on that airframe, so I'm hoping to find an image with them so I have an excuse to model them too.

Re: PIDS Questions

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 18:17
by Boman
Sniper is a relatively new pod for the aggressors (since ~2016), and is used to identify the enemy at long range without use of radar, hence masking their appearance for longer. Some ANG F-15 units use it for exactly the same purpose in the interceptor role.
The aggressors have no need for the ALE-50 due to mission flown, this is more in use by front line units incl. ANG.
Haven't seen PIDS pylons on agressors (yet), however there is nothing precluding its use as the PIDS is based on standard station 3/7 pylons. (UAE block 60's have been seen with them however)

Re: PIDS Questions

Unread postPosted: 02 Dec 2018, 16:47
by ViperDude
Since I worked early PID's let me give my two cents. Any USAF block F-16 can carry a PID's pylon, originally it was only Post Block but now any block can carry it. The Chaff/Flare buckets originally could face inboard or outboard. Inboard created problems so outboard is how they are mounted and now with the Flare-Up mod which is a weird name because it's really means down and it releases them down and away from the aircraft.

As far as the subject of SNIPER it is not a long range pod it is a medium range pod. IRST is a long range targeting pod.

Cheers,

Viperdude