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spazsinbad

Re: F-35A vs B vs C

13 Nov 2018, 05:03

Robert Heffley PDFs: https://www.robertheffley.com/pages/bib ... d_Analysis

Outer-Loop Control Factors for Carrier Aircraft, Robert Heffley Engineering TR-RHE-NAV-90-1, 1 Dec 1990. (.pdf 900 KB)

https://www.robertheffley.com/docs/HQs/ ... 0_TR_1.pdf
spazsinbad

Re: F-35A vs B vs C

marauder2048

Re: F-35A vs B vs C

13 Nov 2018, 00:14

quicksilver wrote:http://robertheffley.com/docs/HQs/NAVAIR_2002_71.pdf

For those inclined to more understanding of carrier suit’ and aircraft design; an excellent reference which includes substantial historical references.


Lockheed had proposed a common planform for all variants; the Navy version would have used blown flaps
(adapted roll control jets from the STOVL version) but the Navy was and is hostile to boundary layer control as
evidenced in part by its rather perfunctory treatment in that paper.
quicksilver

Re: F-35A vs B vs C

12 Nov 2018, 22:59

http://robertheffley.com/docs/HQs/NAVAIR_2002_71.pdf

For those inclined to more understanding of carrier suit’ and aircraft design; an excellent reference which includes substantial historical references.

Re: Question about the F/A-18's landing characteristics

06 Jul 2017, 20:43

In short, aircraft designed to perform arrested recoveries aboard ship require the engine(s) to be in an optimum portion of the power/rpm response curve (typically higher power) during approach and landing. Unlike conventional land-based fighters they do not carry extra speed (and consequentially a relatively low power setting) into a flare and touchdown.

An excellent reference at -- http://robertheffley.com/docs/HQs/NAVAIR_2002_71.pdf
spazsinbad

Re: UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

27 Jun 2017, 07:50

blindpilot wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:... So what is the takeoff length available on the USMC flat decks. There are diagrams and text on this forum so I'll go look.
NOT being my part of ship (USN/USMC) I don't have time at moment to figure out what this LHA/LHD diagram is - 800 feet.
FROM: http://www.robertheffley.com/docs/CV_en ... Manual.pdf [get back later]


Well, seeing as I doubt they want to start takeoff with their a$$ hanging over the back of the deck .. the 844 ft deck gives close to a 800 foot roll available ....
BUT BUT
I believe the USMC normally (in DT flights) used about a 600 foot roll out. They come up off the port elevator hang a left and roll forward even a little then. Then take off from there. It might be < 600 ft.

I think we need to be careful how we look at MTOW, with the B's. In stealth load out that's just a 3,000 lb load. You don't need MTOW specs for that. Marines seem comfortable (based on DTs) doing 600 foot STO with full internal loads. (Actually on the DTs they seemed to be doing the same 600ish feet with external weapons on wing as well) We're not sure what fuel loads they were using on the DTs, but I'm guessing they at least tried full load and no sign of them going back to the end of the ship to get a good roll, same old "up the 'vator, hang a left, open doors and go."

FWIW
BP

'BP' you're funny. :mrgreen: It is de rigeur to have youse a$$ hanging out with the flight deck director winking and nodding and cajoling (wot we could not hear) to get the aircraft wheels almost up against the scuppers with arrse out or nose over the water and NO WAY TO GET DOWN except over the slippery aircraft because the chains got in the way of the ladder. A few USN clips show how close aircraft get to the edge - so no worries getting as much deck length as possible.

I agree though IF USMC required MTOW STOs on LHA/LHDs then that would have been a KPP. I was just WAGgin' me tail because dem Brits have so many whiners and moaners about what an F-35B CANNOT DO that they tell tales about MTOW.
blindpilot

Re: UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

27 Jun 2017, 07:10

spazsinbad wrote:... So what is the takeoff length available on the USMC flat decks. There are diagrams and text on this forum so I'll go look.
NOT being my part of ship (USN/USMC) I don't have time at moment to figure out what this LHA/LHD diagram is - 800 feet.
FROM: http://www.robertheffley.com/docs/CV_en ... Manual.pdf [get back later]


Well, seeing as I doubt they want to start takeoff with their a$$ hanging over the back of the deck .. the 844 ft deck gives close to a 800 foot roll available ....
BUT BUT
I believe the USMC normally (in DT flights) used about a 600 foot roll out. They come up off the port elevator hang a left and roll forward even a little then. Then take off from there. It might be < 600 ft.

I think we need to be careful how we look at MTOW, with the B's. In stealth load out that's just a 3,000 lb load. You don't need MTOW specs for that. Marines seem comfortable (based on DTs) doing 600 foot STO with full internal loads. (Actually on the DTs they seemed to be doing the same 600ish feet with external weapons on wing as well) We're not sure what fuel loads they were using on the DTs, but I'm guessing they at least tried full load and no sign of them going back to the end of the ship to get a good roll, same old "up the 'vator, hang a left, open doors and go."

FWIW
BP
spazsinbad

Re: UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

27 Jun 2017, 06:27

spazsinbad wrote:The FLAT deck length for a MTOW Maximum Take Off Weight for an F-35B for USMC has not been revealed however several people have quoted 800 feet with SKI JUMP included will get the F-35B off CVF at MTOW with weapons revealed. OH - I see whilst typing 'BP' has replied....

So as a WAG because looking at KPP we see 'old' KPP said 550 feet [since amended to round figure of 600 feet but dunno CVF amendment] flat deck with same weight taking 450 feet when CVF ski jump installed at same WOD/temperature. So conjecture would be a FLAT deck MTOW F-35B would require 900 feet + the plus is important because I have done a few TA4G MTOW takeoffs on our bumpy 6,300 foot runways on very hot nil wind days and those extra feets are GOLD! :mrgreen:

Remember the ski jump also affords a safer take off in all conditions whereas flat deck is safe but iffy probably at MTOW - maybe - it is just a WAG [at sea level, tropical day, 10 kts operational WOD KPP]. So what is the takeoff length available on the USMC flat decks. There are diagrams and text on this forum so I'll go look.

NOT being my part of ship (USN/USMC) I don't have time at moment to figure out what this LHA/LHD diagram is - 800 feet.

FROM: http://www.robertheffley.com/docs/CV_en ... Manual.pdf [get back later]

Re: F-35 jump jet gears up for crucial at-sea tests

23 Mar 2015, 21:46

'TRAM LINE' is the very wide line down the LHA deck. Why it was moved [IIRC 7 feet?] and How much has been stipulated in the thread about the FIRST F-35Bs on USS Wasp DT-I wayback in the dreamtime. THINK safety of flight (STO). THINK wingspan of an F-35B compared to an AV-8B. Tram Line seen in composite photo with the 'landing spots' delinated in white paint + numbers. An eye-glazing amount of goodly text about F-35B STOs & VLs here:

viewtopic.php?f=57&t=24438&p=274982&hilit=tram+International#p274982

Becuz the VTOL LSO NATOPS 01 Jul 2004 is no longer available here (it is attached below now): http://www.robertheffley.com/docs/CV_en ... Manual.pdf (1Mb)
V/STOL SHIPBOARD AND LANDING SIGNAL OFFICER NATOPS MANUAL
01 Jul 2004 NAVAIR 00-80T-111

"...Tramline. The centerline of the AV-8B landing and launch area....

"...CHAPTER 8 Launch and Departure Procedures [AV-8B Harrier]
8.1 SHORT TAKEOFF PROCEDURES
8.1.1 Lineup.
The aircraft shall be aligned in the middle of the tramline with the nose tire on the distance marker. Care shall be taken to ensure the nose tire is centered and fine steering is engaged. If the aircraft had been chocked and chained in the launch position, the aircraft shall be taxied ahead before launching to ensure the nosewheel is centered....

...11. If the aircraft deviates from the tramline, do not attempt to correct back to the tramline immediately or PIO may occur. Instead, a correction should be made so the aircraft arrives at the nozzle rotation line with the nose tire on the tramline...."
&
...CHAPTER 6 Recovery Procedures
"...6.3 CASE 1 RECOVERY...
...14. Once cleared to land, the pilot shall strive to place his head over the intended landing spot. The aircraft shall normally be lined up on the tramline for landing; however, if the pilot is uncomfortable with the winds, the nose of the aircraft may be aligned with the wind. In this case, the pilot shall strive to place the main gear of the aircraft on the tramline.
Note
The wind vane [on Harrier nose] is an unreliable indicator during landing because of turbulence from the island...."
&
CHAPTER 13 CV/CVN Operations...
"...13.3 RECOVERY PROCEDURES
13.3.1 Case 1.
[daylight good WX]
1. Case 1 procedures as outlined in Chapter 6 of this manual shall be utilized. The pilot shall conduct an offset approach to abeam spot 3. A 3 degree glideslope shall be established to arrive abeam the landing spot at a 120-foot hover. The primary landing spot shall be spot 3.

2. When landing on spot 3 or 4, the main gear shall be placed on the ADLL.

3. When landing on spot 1 or 2, the main gear shall be on the FDLL, if available. If there is no FDLL, the aircraft shall be centered with respect to the deck...."

Source: http://www.robertheffley.com/docs/CV_en ... Manual.pdf (1Mb)

Does it melt the decks or not...?
25 May 2012 Gabriele - UK Armed Forces Commentary

"...An almost certainly definitive change is the:
moving (of) the flight deck’s “Tram Line,” or yellow line, which is used by pilots to guide them when performing short landings [NOPE! STOs! Short Take Offs - running from the back to front - USMC will NOT be conducting SRVLs on their flat decks, ONLY UK on their CVFS (mebbe F-35Bs will be allowed SRVLs on CVNs one day when hell freezes over? AND... I'll concede that the TRAMLINE is used for VLs on LHAS (as seen in NATOPS quotes) but the SPOT for landing is KEY - the F-35B lands on that Spot with PRECISION we are told], closer to the port side of the ship. This is due to the larger wingspan and greater sizes of the F35B compared to the Harrier...."

Source: http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot ... r-not.html

http://navy-matters.beedall.com/images/jsfcompair.jpg
spazsinbad

Re: F-35 on 60 Minutes this Sunday

22 Feb 2014, 05:02

'neurotech' doubtless LSO jargon/carrier landing nomenclature has changed over the last 40 odd years. I would guess that 'ease gun' refers to 'power/throttle'? So that is another way to deck spot (rather than watch the mirror/IFOLS all the way to touchdown / arrest) by taking off throttle (going down quickly at Opt AoA) to ensure an arrest occurs - at the ramp which is just before and over the ramp (which is large on a USN carrier). Often if done too dramatically the aircraft will 'hit the ramp' or more likely - if the LSO has allowed to aircraft to continue an otherwise good approach - the hook will connect with the ramp which may not be good for the hook or for the aircraft.

There is a list of official LSO symbols / acronyms / words they use to describe an approach so that when noted the approach can be described later at the LSO / pilot debrief. Often other jargon is introduced then (including a punch to the chest for being an Fwit!). And never argue with the LSO - he knows all - he saw it - you (the pilot) did not. :mrgreen:

If I am to be believed I have spent over a decade on and off gathering info new and old about carrier deck landing and associated info. Most of it is online at my web page as seen in my signature below if you are interested. I'm working on a new edition of the 4.4GB PDF about the A4G and stuff which includes the deck landing material (to add more about DLs) however when that will be finished I do not know. Meanwhile here is an old PDF page (from a PDF which may no longer be available at the URL I will post - however I'll check first) which shows the 'ease gun' as being jargon for an 'abrupt power reduction' (I do not recall that being used in my day but that does not mean a lot at my age). :doh:

This website now gone used to have an excellent collection of old 1970s or so carrier landing info but where now?
http://www.robertheffley.com/docs/CV_en ... 0063-2.pdf

This is the name of PDF so searching with GOOGLE should find three hits of interest perhaps:
'Hooks and McMurry--Pilot Behavior Models for LSO Training Systems--NAVTRAEQUIPCEN 80-C-0063-2.PDF' (1980-83)

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Marine t

06 Sep 2013, 12:00

This same old VSTOL NATOPS will be attached also. Meanwhile here is there take on the Harrier Launch Procedure.... [I'll look at AV-8B NATOPS also - which says "Shipboard Procedures 8.1 GENERAL SHIPBOARD PROCEDURES Refer to NAVAIR 00-80T-111 (below).]

V/STOL SHIPBOARD AND LANDING SIGNAL OFFICER NATOPS MANUAL 01 July 2004 NAVAIR 00-80T-111
8.1.4 Day Short Takeoff Procedures. page 8-2
"...6. Pilot shall salute when ready.

7. The launch officer will touch the deck when cleared to launch.

8. Apply full power on the launch signal and hold the brakes until the tires skid.

9. Note maximum rpm and water flow if required.

10. Guard the stick in the preset stabilator trim position throughout the deck run and nozzle
rotation.

11. If the aircraft deviates from the tramline, do not attempt to correct back to the tramline
immediately or PIO may occur. Instead, a correction should be made so the aircraft arrives
at the nozzle rotation line with the nose tire on the tramline.

12. Rotate the nozzles briskly to the STO stop at the nozzle rotation line.

Note
There may be a slight pause depending on
excess end speed before the aircraft rotates.
This is because of the time delay from nozzle
rotation until the flaps fully program. This is
normal, and no pilot compensation is
required.

13. At bow exit, expect a noseup rotation that will tend to increase in rate slightly as the target attitude is achieved. The proper attitude is achieved when the depressed attitude symbol (witch’s hat) is maintained between the pitch carets and the 5_ pitch bar. With the proper trim set, the aircraft will seek the proper attitude. A small forward stick check will be required to stop the pitch rate and maintain the exit attitude. The pilot shall maintain the witch’s hat between the pitch carets and the 5_ pitch bar. Do not pull the nose off the deck.

WARNING
Checking the attitude at less optimum may
result in a sink off the bow.

14. After a positive rate of climb is established, commence an accelerating transition...."

http://www.robertheffley.com/docs/CV_en ... Manual.pdf (1Mb)
spazsinbad

26 Mar 2012, 01:10

An amendment to my 'back of envelope' F-35C Carrier Approach information needs to be amended in the light of these 'Speed Definitions' as indicated in this definition excerpt from:

"The relationship between Vpa, WOD, and engaging speed is significant to the discussion of approach requirements. Touchdown speed is defined as 105% of Vpa. The 5% factor added to the touchdown speed is not arbitary. It is based on actual ship survey data and the statistical variation seen in the actual touchdown speeds. The percentage varies with each aircraft. However, for design purposes, a 5% factor is used as a nominal value to define touchdown speed. Engaging speed is defined as touchdown speed minus WOD. Closure speed is the relative speed between the aircraft and the ship. The engaging speed limit is the minimum of the arresting gear limit speed, hookload limit speed, or limiting sink speed. The engaging speed must not exceed the engaging limit speed for safe recovery. WOD is generated by the combination of natural wind and/or ship speed."
+ [from diagram]
Engaging Speed Factor (0.06 x Approach Speed)
SPEED DEFINITIONS: from REVIEW OF THE CARRIER APPROACH CRITERIA FOR CARRIER-BASED AIRCRAFT PHASE I; FINAL REPORT
http://www.robertheffley.com/docs/HQs/N ... 002_71.pdf
___________

So this rough calculation: "CVF at 10 knots in NIL wind can arrest at Maximum Landing Weight F-35C at Opt. Angle of Attack Approach (140- KIAS) within limits of the USN Mk.7 Mod 3 or better Arresting Gear" from page 3 of this thread (scroll down): http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopi ... rt-30.html

Amendment needed perhaps however i thnk I used the maximum quoted figures so it is all in the ball park - if in doubt add 5 KNOTS! [to CVF speed 10+5=15 knots :D (for mum 'n the kids)]. I'll get around to that recalculation soonish.....

06 Mar 2012, 00:28

Could not find what I was looking for but found this graphic (which is also somewhere on a thread about STO on LHAs on this forum) but repeated here to add to 'quicksilver' info above:

USS Wasp Deck Layout
http://www.robertheffley.com/docs/CV_en ... Manual.pdf
&
www.vtol.org/f65_bestPapers/testAndEvaluation.pdf

09 Jan 2012, 09:00

JPALS AUTOLAND might do it! But seriously if 'out of the box' ideas now would help land USN aircraft these would have been investigated over the years and found wanting if not enabled. I guess the expense of modifying eleven plus carrier decks outweighs fixing the F-35C hook/arrest issues for all conditions? Don't forget all the runways in the world wot will require this mystical channel that will only drain rain water and be a real hassle for everyone. Why even the short/long field arrestor wire on rubber grommets is a hassle for some aircraft (hence BAK-14 modified can hide the wire underground to popup as required).

I would rather hit the 'rubber deck' as did the venerable old Brit RN test pilot (still kicking AFAIK after all that 'rubber deck' abuse and the most deck landings of any mudder trucker! :D

So just to go to the rubber room here he is:

"Celebrated Royal Navy veteran Test Pilot, Captain Eric ‘Winkle’ Brown MBE, OBE, CBE, DSC, AFC RN celebrated his 90th birthday last month. To mark the event Captain Brown was visited by a Royal Navy Lynx from 702 Squadron. Eric, the Navy’s most decorated pilot and the first man to land a jet aircraft on a ship at sea, said of his 31 years service with the Fleet Air Arm “It was exciting, challenging and of course you met people who were really geniuses in their time.” Eric served as a fighter pilot in the Battle of Britain and later as one of the world’s greatest test pilots. He holds many world records including the most types of aircraft flown, a staggering 487 and the most carrier deck landings at 2407, and was also the first British pilot to fly a helicopter. In November 2008 he flew to America to see the new F-35 Joint Combat Aircraft. He sat in the cockpit and flew the simulator."

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/upload/pdf/newsletter_2.pdf

3rd Dec 1945: 1st Jet Landing on a Carrier (Lt Cdr Brown RN, Sea Vampire, HMS OCEAN)
_________________

http://www.robertheffley.com/docs/CV_en ... 685823.pdf

Flexdeck
“In the early 1950s significant changes were occurring in carrier aviation. In addition to the development of the steam catapult, the UK Royal Navy had also saved carrier aviation with the introduction of the angled deck and mirror landed system. During this period the idea was conceived of saving considerable weight, thereby significantly improving up and away performance, by removing the landing gear, its associated systems, and structural weight. A joint U.S. Navy and Air Force, and UK Royal Navy program was initiated to investigate the concepts of zero-length launch and flex deck landings. The zero-length launch program was undertaken by the Air Force and met with little success. All three services had flex deck programs. The Air Force program was shortlived, and injured both test pilots.

The Royal Navy program was conducted using a rubber deck which was higher in the middle than at each end in order to reduce landing loads. The de Havilland Vampire, which had made the first jet carrier landings and takeoffs on December 3, 1945, was used. It was a straight-wing aircraft with a loaded weight of 12,660lb and used a long straight-in approach at 90kt. Pitch down and rapid deceleration occurred at arresting wire engagement, followed by mild impact and about a dozen bounces. The aircraft stopped in about 100ft.”
___________

More on Eric here: http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/wi ... brown.aspx
&
http://www.vectorsite.net/avvamp_1.html

“*One of the odd footnotes of the Vampire's service with the Royal Navy in which the type performed "wheels up" arrested landings on carriers. The idea was that eliminating the heavy landing gear would improve fighter performance; the fighter would "belly in" on a "flex-ible deck" or "mattress" composed of heavy layers of rubber on top of a matrix of fire hoses. A Vampire F.1 was modified to test this idea, performing an initial wheels-up landing test on 29 December 1947, setting down on a mattress set up on an airfield, with Eric Brown doing the honors. It didn't go well, with the landing proving so rough that the aircraft had to be written off. Brown was unhurt. The Royal Navy was undiscouraged. Two "Sea Vampire F.21" machines were built in 1948, both being similar to the Sea Vampire F.20 but with a reinforced belly and other tweaky changes; landing gear was retained. Landings were performed on a mattress set up on the carrier HMS WARRIOR in 1948 and 1949. Things went much better and it seemed the flexible deck system could be made to work, but though the Royal Navy tinkered with the notion into the early 1950s, overall it was just too much of a nuisance to be adopted.” [I'm old enough to have flown the RAN & RAAF versions of the dual trainer Vampire but NOT doing the capers described above!] :D
____________

BIO PDF here: http://www.epnaao.com/BIOS_files/HONORA ... ic%20M.pdf (0.27Mb)

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: A Morning on the USS Wasp ... Wi

26 Oct 2011, 20:27

quicksilver, conveniently the free AV-8B NATOPS refers shipboard procedures to this PDF below and I'll start looking through it now. However some details may differ (and we don't know) for F-35B use. I'll always keep looking online for the latest LSO Reference Manual recently updated after a decade in 2010 (if anyone finds this particular PDF online then please let me know - thanks) and any other relevant aircraft/CV/LHD NATOPS updates: [graphic is NOT for F-35B]

V/STOL SHIPBOARD AND LANDING SIGNAL OFFICER NATOPS MANUAL 2004

http://www.robertheffley.com/docs/CV_en ... Manual.pdf (1Mb)
_______________________________

3rd Last graphic of USS Wasp is from the AVCERT Bulletin Feb 2007

AVIATION READINESS QUALIFICATION (ARQ), AVIATION FACILITY
CERTIFICATION (AVCERT) AND AVIATION (AIR) CERTIFICATION
OF COMNAVSURFOR SHIPS FEBRUARY 2007

http://dcfpnavymil.org/Library/sftm/CNSFINST3700-1B.pdf (0.5Mb)
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