Forum: Military Aircraft of the Cold War

You can say it, the Lightning is ugly! Wink

I like the Zipper too, but as parrothead wrote:

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there has to be a reason that the Zipper is still in service six years after the Lightning was retired.

Err... What about money?

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Quote:

Err... What about money?

What exactly do you mean concerning money? That the Zipper is cheaper to operate than the Lightning? Or that the Italians don't want to spend the money on a new jet until they really have to? I don't quite understand.

As for the looks, OK, I'll just come right out and say it. The Lightning is UGLY! Wink

yeah the Lightning is Ugly, but so is the A-10!! As for the Italians still operating the 104S it’s because it does what its supposed to do, a point interceptor. the Lightning’s were point intecepter/Air superiority, they were finally replaced by Tornado F3's If the Italians could afford F3's I bet the 104's would be gone too, although as a pure interceptor performance wise the 104 is better. But the Tornado has it in Range, radar and weapons load, and maneuverability. nad is probbally easyer to maintain too. but that just a guess based on airframe age and engs.

That's what I meant: if the Italians had had the money earlier, they would have replaced the Zippers earlier (even if their Italian pilots seem to truly love them!). The Zipper has bright interceptor performance, but the lack of proper modern avionics serioulsly limited the use of the planes.

Anyway, the retirement of the Zippers makes me sad, because it is one of my favorite jets, probably because it is so extremely designed and, guys, that thing really looks like a fighter! Cool

Hey thanks JR. Is that manual / guide whatever online somewhere? Great historical document I'm sure.

Now, one comment I have heard about the F-104 and Italians that JR can refute is

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No wonder the Italian pilots love the F-104, it is just like one of their cars- fast, sleek, and can't turn for Sh*t!

Kevin
The Ejection Site

Kevin,

You guy?s crack me up! I?m sitting here laughing my alpha off! Against the F-4 or F-5 the Zipper turns good enough that we?ve got a lot of gum camera footage of the other jets? You got gotta fight using the vertical and top out around 60k in the Zipper and stay above 1.4 Mach. Having been fortunate enough to be loaned a Ferrari, and I currently own a Ducati, I?ve got no complaints about their turning abilities.

Elp,

No, regretfully those are from my collection, maybe someday we?ll get them all scanned etc?

Parrothead,

Never give up! Thanks Smile

I never gave up and finally ran into the right team at the right time?

YOU GUYS SEND ME A PRIVATE MESSAGE WITH YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS AND I?LL SEND Y?ALL SOME ZIPPER SOUNDS, LIKE ONLY THE STARFIGHTER AND THE WONDERFUL J79 CAN PRODUCE? And Elp, I?ll ship the rest of the SURE Report cartoons!

And in case you?ve never seen a lightning, I?ve attached a few comparison pics that include the Zipper I flew last week.

Methinks them Eye-talian Ferraris can turn corners just fine... Wink

Just ask any Formula One driver if Schumacher's Ferrari can turn!!! Cool

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You guy?s crack me up! I?m sitting here laughing my alpha off!

<grin> That was my intent! I have never driven an Italian car, but have no doubt they can turn when needed (just watch any movie of Italy- I dare you to show me a straight highway!) I thought it was a humorous quote when I heard it too.

Kelly Johnson was a genius of design. If he said he could make the -104 maneuverable, I believe him. It ain't a knife fighter, but that is 'cause Kelly knew that knife fights are always dangerous to both sides. He wanted a fighter that slashed thru the fight before the enemy knew what hit him as the SURE drawings show...

Kevin
The Ejection Site

You know, I just realized what the Lightning reminds me of. The profile and the vertical stab remind me of the Ryan X-13 Vertijet! Wink

Lets face it the only reason the Italians continue to use the F-104 is the spares are cheap!

The Lightning is in private hands and is still flying!

The spares being cheap means more $ for other stuff, like gas for flying, ordinance for training, etc. I know the Lightning is in private hands, but then, so is the Zipper. JR seems to love his! I just wonder which one is cheaper to operate - gas, spares, man hours of maintenance, etc.? My money's on the Zipper! Very Happy

Kinda reminds me of the Weapons meet these pictures are from. Every other team brought 3 or 4 of the other jets in case they suffered a mechanical. The 479th brought the one F-104, and won the meet...

We did five flights last week, the Zipper, what a sweet fighter jet. Cool

Hey JR,

Has the loyal order of F-104 people ever thought of having that SURE Report cartoon thing reprinted for sale ( assuming no classified stuff ) and or failing that it would be a great .PDF file of the whole thing to offer on disk for sale or what ever. It is after all an important piece of history. Heck even if Lockheed still owns the rights to it, it should be offered in their company gift shops.

Forum: Military Aircraft of the Cold War

F-104 vs BAC Lighting - Another 'what if?'