Forum: Mishaps

Salute!

Fer chrissakes, the videos show a basic alignment of jets on the deck, with their tails hanging out over the edge.

THERE WAS NOBODY BEHIND McCain.

The film clearly shows a 5" rocket (Zuni or an AIM-9) coming across from an F-4 on the opposite side of the deck.

The "old" bombs were there because we had not designed, tested and fielded newer bombs - the MK-81, MK-82, MK-83 and MK-84. USN led the way on those, not USAF.

I dropped hundreds of WW2 or Korean War M-117 750 pounders. The Nimrods and Canberras dropped no-sierra WW2 incendiary doofers we used to call "funny bombs" over the Trail.

BEAM ME UP!

The promotion hype is way out of line. McCain was a USN Lt (USAF Captain), or maybe even a LTJG (USAF 1st LT). He was a brand new one. So at 4 years you become a LT (USN), you come up for Lt Commander( USAF Major) at about 10-11 years of service. The policy was to promote the POW's at the appropriate year.

The reason many POW's came out as USN Captains (USAF Bird Colonels) is that they were already LT Commanders or Commanders when captured 6-7 years prior.

Most of my classmates ( we had highest number of POW's of any class) did not come out as Majors (USAF). They were LT's when they got captured and got out of jail before they had served 9 years - class of 1964, captured in 1966,67,68. Released in 1973 - 9 years of commissioned duty.

Most of the folks that got captured before the "bombing halt" of 1968 were old farts. They were seasoned warriors. Majors, light Cols, etc. I was a junior USAF Captain then, and I would have come out of the Hilton a Captain with another two years to be a Major. If you look at the shootdowns from 1964 to 1968, there were many senior officers. We yutes were denied combat duty until late 1965 because we were "inexperienced", as was McCain.

This dweeb must also believe that the U.S. government planted explosives in the Trade Towers, then convinced some Islamic radicals to follow thru the "plan".

BEAM ME UP!!!!

A pox on "jacob-whazzitname". I will not only steal your firstborne, but will eat them.

Pissed off Gums sends ....

Janitors may edit at will, but I am pee-ohhed.

F-16.net Sponsor

Gums,

Full support from this quarter

Forum Veteran Joined: Dec 15, 2006 - 12:28 AM Posts: 760

IMAO

Jacob Israel Thanks for your post demonstrating the smear tactics of unethical scum like yourself.

I think you are a racist and anti-Semite. I think you are a troll, political hack, slanderer, poser, fascist, racist and anti-Semite. I could go on.

It’s pretty obvious that you are a politically motivated poser that has no expertise or sanity when it comes to aircraft knowledge and safety. You claim to be a pilot: yet your claim is hard to believe because your own post shows you are incompetent: the video clearly debunks the “wet start” slander.

It’s clear that you’re not a pilot because of your lack of knowledge and the lack of concern for the crews. It’s fairly clear that you have a political agenda and are trying to bluff and bully your political agenda of lies and hatred. Instead of conceding to the evidence and admitting that fascist liberals and the likes of Ron Paul supporters are using smear tactics with the “wet start” spams; instead you resort to additional smearing with unfounded racist attacks on John McCain, thusly you reveal that you are a racist as well as a shill.

With your first post you have demonstrated your extreme ignorance and hatred (evil).

May you burn in hell for slandering a veteran/POW.

(mods; I realize this is not the normal tone of this message board. Please understand the circumstances. I would like my post not to be edited, but would not contest if it was)

Jacob Israel you are such lowlife scum you attempt to attack me and my video. You act like a spoiled pre-Madonna, the technology that captured the video four decades ago was rather primitive, and considering that the video survived explosions, the heat of fires and was subjected to radar and other EM. For its time era the video was virtually a state of the art and it was virtually a miracle that it survived in such good condition. The video I have is even more deteriorated, because it has also been exposed to additional radar, and other extreme EM conditions. I took the precaution of storing my videos in metal foil folders in a steel fire cabinet, yet due to the aging process and the hostile EM environment many of my videos have deteriorated to some degree. However there still is much information that can be gathered and learn from them even though there has been some deterioration. An expert does not have to have a pristine modern high definition video to be able to learn and gather data.

If you really were a jet pilot as you claim, you should have probably been through safety training where you watched films that were in similar or even worse condition. Thusly if you really were a jet pilot I doubt you would take issue with the condition of the video.

I have in my possession better videos, but I do not have the rights to publicly post them.

You remind me of that bozo John F. Kennedy that argued with photo interpreters that he didn’t see any evidence of missiles in Cuba. Thankfully due to the persistence and insistence and professionalism of the photo interpreters; John F. Kennedy ignored his ignorance and gut feelings; instead to take the word of the photo interpreters.

Thankfully to some knowledgeable experts. Some of the details have been added to the Wikipedia description to help debunk the wet start smear campaign.

Wikipedia wrote:

About 10:50 (local time) on the 29th, while preparations for a second strike were being made near 19°9'5?N, 107°23'5?E, an unguided 5-inch Mk-32 "Zuni" rocket, one of four contained in a LAU-10 underwing rocket pod mounted on an F-4 Phantom II, was accidentally fired due to an electrical power surge during the switch from external power to internal power.

A drawing of the stern of Forrestal showing the spotting of aircraft at the time of the incident. The likely source of the Zuni is said to be F-4 #110 with the struck aircraft, either White's A-4 #405 or McCain's A-4 #416 circled in red.The rocket flew across the flight deck, striking a wing-mounted external fuel tank on an A-4 Skyhawk, either Aircraft No. 405 piloted by LCDR Fred D. White or No. 416 piloted by future Arizona Senator, LCDR John McCain, which were waiting to launch. The warhead's safety mechanism prevented it from detonating, but the impact tore the tank off the wing and ignited the resulting spray of pressurized fuel, causing an instantaneous conflagration. The heat caused additional fuel tanks to overheat, rupture and spew volatile jet fuel onto the deck, feeding the flames. Huge gusts of fire shot into the air along the flight deck, trapping pilots in their aircraft with no recourse but to escape through the flames or be incinerated in their cockpits. LCDR Fred D. White, waiting to launch in Aircraft No. 405, leaped out of his burning Skyhawk in an attempt to escape the inferno, but was killed instantly (along with many firefighters) by the cooking off of the first bomb. LCDR Herbert A. Hope of VA-46 (and operations officer of CVW-17) jumped out of the cockpit of his Skyhawk between explosions, rolled off the flight deck and into the starboard man-overboard net. Making his way down below to the hangar deck, he took command of a firefighting team. "The port quarter of the flight deck where I was" he recalled, "is no longer there."[3] With his aircraft surrounded by flames, McCain escaped by climbing out of the cockpit, walking down the nose and jumping off the refueling probe.

The impact of the Zuni on the initially-struck aircraft had also dislodged two of the 1000-lb bombs, which lay in the burning fuel. The fire teams chief, Gerald Farrier (without benefit of protective clothing) immediately drenched the bombs with a PKP fire extinguisher in an effort to knock down the fuel fire long enough to allow the pilots to escape. According to their training, the fire team normally had almost three minutes to reduce the temperature of the bombs to a safe level, but the chief did not realize the bombs were already critically close to cooking-off until one split open. The chief, knowing a lethal explosion was imminent, shouted for the fire team to withdraw but the bomb exploded seconds later.[citation needed]

One minute and 34 seconds after the impact and initial fire, and with the on-deck firefighting teams still actively battling the blaze, a 1000-lb. "Comp. B" bomb cooked off from the heat of the flames and exploded underneath McCain's plane; the force destroyed the aircraft (along with its remaining fuel and armament), blew a smoking crater in the armored flight deck, and sprayed the deck and crew with shrapnel and burning jet fuel. The explosion killed the entire on-deck firefighting contingent, with the exception of 3 men who managed to survive with critical injuries. The two bomb-laden A-4s in line ahead of McCain's were riddled with shrapnel from the explosion and engulfed in the flaming JP-5 jet fuel still spreading over the deck, causing more bombs to detonate and more fuel to spill.

Exhausted crewmembers in front of what remains of a row of F-4B Phantoms that were parked along the starboard stern quarter.Nine bomb explosions on the flight deck occurred, eight caused by the "Comp. B" bombs and the ninth occurred as a sympathetic detonation between an old bomb and a newer H6 bomb. The explosions tore large holes in the armored flight deck, causing flaming jet fuel to drain into the interior of the ship, including the living quarters directly underneath the flight deck, and the below-decks aircraft hangar.

Sailors and Marines brought the flames under control on the flight deck by 12:15, although they continued to clear smoke and to cool hot steel on the 02 and 03 levels until they reported all fires under control by 13:42, and finally declared the fire defeated at 04:00 the next morning, due to additional flare-ups.

Throughout the day the ship’s medical staff worked in dangerous conditions to assist their comrades. HM2 Paul Streetman, one of 38 corpsmen assigned to the carrier, spent over 11 hours on the mangled flight deck tending to his shipmates. The large number of casualties quickly overwhelmed the ship’s Sick Bay staff, and Forrestal was escorted by USS Henry W. Tucker (DD-875) to rendezvous with hospital ship USS Repose (AH-16) at 20:54, allowing the crew to begin transferring the dead and wounded at 22:53.

If you examine the position of the aircraft that launched a rocket and compare it to the video, you can clearly see that after McCains plane was first hit by the rocket that there was no fire around the F-4 that fired the rocket. In order for the wet start hypothesis to have any merit there would have had to been a pool of burning fire under the F-4 prior to launching the rocket, and the fire would have had to been there log enough to cook through the rocket. Clearly none of those criteria were met, thusly the wet start hypothesis is bunk.

I would think any sane and competent military pilot, crew or maintainer would be able to discern that.

John McCain was transferred to the Oriskany to help replace lost A-4s and crews- it is common to rearrange personnel and equipment to make up for attrition, is it not?

The main point is that he did NOTHING wrong.

As for the forumer known as jacobisrael- where did he and his somewhat(sic) volatile post come from??? He was so fired up you would have thought someone stuck a magnesium flare up HIS tailpipe!!! Shocked

StolichnayaStrafer wrote:

John McCain was transferred to the Oriskany to help replace lost A-4s and crews- it is common to rearrange personnel and equipment to make up for attrition, is it not?

The main point is that he did NOTHING wrong.

As for the forumer known as jacobisrael- where did he and his somewhat(sic) volatile post come from??? He was so fired up you would have thought someone stuck a magnesium flare up HIS tailpipe!!! Shocked

I think he was/is a TROLL - and I have nothing against people who live under bridges.

I suggest securing the flare in place with this material

.

Forum Veteran Joined: Dec 15, 2006 - 12:28 AM Posts: 760

StolichnayaStrafer wrote:

John McCain was transferred to the Oriskany to help replace lost A-4s and crews- it is common to rearrange personnel and equipment to make up for attrition, is it not?

The main point is that he did NOTHING wrong.

Agreed.

John McCain the politician I have a lot of problems with, unfortunately the other front runners seem to be worse. I consider John McCain the lesser evil.

As far as John McCain the soldier/airman, he seems to be a pretty good Joe.

As far as the transfer after the USS Forrestal Mishap he could’ve probably been like many and get convalescence or transferred to light or and safe job assignments. John McCain did the truly heroic by requesting to be put back onto flight status and back into combat ASAP. He volunteered to go back into front-line duty, inadvertently resulting in his shoot down and imprisonment as a POW. For the most part I consider John McCain to be a hero in respect to his military service.

ATFS_Crash wrote:

StolichnayaStrafer wrote:

John McCain was transferred to the Oriskany to help replace lost A-4s and crews- it is common to rearrange personnel and equipment to make up for attrition, is it not?

The main point is that he did NOTHING wrong.

Agreed.

John McCain the politician I have a lot of problems with, unfortunately the other front runners seem to be worse. I consider John McCain the lesser evil.

As far as John McCain the soldier/airman, he seems to be a pretty good Joe.

As far as the transfer after the USS Forrestal Mishap he could’ve probably been like many and get convalescence or transferred to light or and safe job assignments. John McCain did the truly heroic by requesting to be put back onto flight status and back into combat ASAP. He volunteered to go back into front-line duty, inadvertently resulting in his shoot down and imprisonment as a POW. For the most part I consider John McCain to be a hero in respect to his military service.

Full agreement from me. Looking at the two options I know who I would want with me when the chips were down, integrity and character matters.

I learned many years ago that when you select leaders you need to focus on the character of an individual. Someone who has demonstrated the ability to make the hard choices for the good of the people. To tell you what you need to hear, not what you want to hear.

When it comes to his voting record he always votes for what is best for the United States. His oath of office as a naval aviator and as a senator is to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States." That is his core belief.

I do not know what will happen in the future, but I trust John McCain to make decisions based on integrity. I know that because for many years he has demonstrated the character I want to see in my president.

If true … for a man to survive so many traumas, he can’t possibly be fit to run this country. (Flashbacks/bad dreams?)

If elected President and a major issue like 9/11 hit this country again is that his breaking point?

Re: McCain to blame for the USS Forrestal mishap?

[link to www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com]

Navy pilot John Sidney McCain III should have never been allowed to graduate from the U.S. Navy flight school. He was a below average student and a lousy pilot. Had his father and grandfather not been famous four star U.S. Navy admirals, McCain III would have never been allowed in the cockpit of a military aircraft.

His father John S. "Junior" McCain was commander of U.S. forces in Europe later becoming commander of American forces in Vietnam while McCain III was being held prisoner of war. McCain III's grandfather John S. McCain, Sr. commanded naval aviation at the Battle of Okinawa in 1945.

During his relative short stunt on flight status, McCain III lost five U.S. Navy aircraft, four in accidents and one in combat.

Robert Timberg, author of The Nightingale's Song, a book about Annapolis graduates and their tours in Vietnam, wrote that McCain "learned to fly at Pensacola, though his performance was below par, at best good enough to get by. He liked flying, but didn't love it."

McCain III lost jet number one in 1958 when he plunged into Corpus Christi Bay while practicing landings. He was knocked unconscious by the impact coming to as the plane settled to the bottom.

McCain's second crash occurred while he was deployed in the Mediterranean. "Flying too low over the Iberian Peninsula," Timberg wrote, "he took out some power lines [reminiscent of the 1998 incident in which a Marine Corps jet sliced through the cables of a gondola at an Italian ski resort, killing 20] which led to a spate of newspaper stories in which he was predictably identified as the son of an admiral."

McCain's third crash three occurred when he was returning from flying a Navy trainer solo to Philadelphia for an Army-Navy football game.

Timberg reported that McCain radioed, "I've got a flameout" and went through standard relight procedures three times before ejecting at one thousand feet. McCain landed on a deserted beach moments before the plane slammed into a clump of trees.

McCain's fourth aircraft loss occurred July 29, 1967, soon after he was assigned to the USS Forrestal as an A-4 Skyhawk pilot. While seated in the cockpit of his aircraft waiting his turn for takeoff, an accidently fired rocket slammed into McCain's plane. He escaped from the burning aircraft, but the explosions that followed killed 134 sailors, destroyed at least 20 aircraft, and threatened to sink the ship.

McCain's fifth loss happened during his 23rd mission over North Vietnam on Oct. 26, 1967, when McCain's A-4 Skyhawk was shot down by a surface-to-air missile. McCain ejected from the plane breaking both arms and a leg in the process and subsequently parachuted into Truc Bach Lake near Hanoi.

After being drug from the lake, a mob gathered around McCain, spit on him, kicked him and stripped him of his clothing. He was bayoneted in his left foot and his shoulder crushed by a rifle butt. He was then transported to the Hoa Lo Prison, also known as the Hanoi Hilton.

After being periodically slapped around for "three or four days" by his captors who wanted military information, McCain called for an officer on his fourth day of captivity. He told the officer, "O.K., I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital." -U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by former POW John McCain.

"Demands for military information were accompanied by threats to terminate my medical treatment if I [McCain] did not cooperate. Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant." Page 193-194, Faith of My Fathers by John McCain.

When the communist learned that McCain's father was Admiral John S. McCain, Jr., the soon-to-be commander of all U.S. Forces in the Pacific, he was rushed to Gai Lam military hospital (U.S. government documents), a medical facility normally unavailable for U.S. POWs.

The communist Vietnamese figured, because POW McCain's father was of such high military rank, that he was of royalty or the governing circle. Thereafter the communist bragged that they had captured "the crown prince."

For 23 combat missions (an estimated 20 hours over enemy territory), the U.S. Navy awarded McCain a Silver Star, a Legion of Merit for Valor, a Distinguished Flying Cross, three Bronze Stars, two Commendation medals plus two Purple Hearts and a dozen service medals.

"McCain had roughly 20 hours in combat," explains Bill Bell, a veteran of Vietnam and former chief of the U.S. Office for POW/MIA Affairs -- the first official U.S. representative in Vietnam since the 1973 fall of Saigon. "Since McCain got 28 medals," Bell continues, "that equals out to about a medal-and-a-half for each hour he spent in combat. There were infantry guys -- grunts on the ground -- who had more than 7,000 hours in combat and I can tell you that there were times and situations where I'm sure a prison cell would have looked pretty good to them by comparison. The question really is how many guys got that number of medals for not being shot down."

For years, McCain has been an unchecked master at manipulating an overly friendly and biased news media. The former POW turned Congressman, turned U.S. Senator, has managed to gloss over his failures as a pilot and collaborations with the enemy by exaggerating his military service and lying about his feats of heroism.

McCain has sprouted a halo and wings to become America's POW-hero presidential candidate.

[link to stiffrightjab.wordpress.com]

Funny. Eric Hartmann, of the WWII German Luftwaffe, was almost washed out of flying due to racking up a few planes too. However, he became the TOP ace of the world with 352 kills! He was shot down once and I believe wounded during the same incident, then escaped from the Russian infantry. He continued fighting until the end of the war, then was incarcerated in Russia for 10 years. After being released, he went back to West Germany and helped reform the West German Luftwaffe. He made a dramatic effect on one of our best allies, so who's to say John McCain can't do the same or one better by helping to reform our own country?The man did the time, don't knock him for serving our country and wanting to do more for it- can you say you would do the same?

I still do not know who I will vote for- I'm just saying that people shouldn't knock him for his military career, as there is no valid reason to do so.

As an ex military pilot myself I can tell you that crazy stuff does happen out there. I can't say I ever purposely attempted to cause a wet start (it can cause extreme damage to the engine from overheating) I have seen all sorts of crazy stuff happen. A-10s comming back from training mission with weeds on them, F-106s with seaweed, B-52s chasing cows, t-38s flying inverted in the traffic pattern at night even oppening the canopy and writing on the outside in flight in a t-37. But by far the craziest stuff happens during wartime, in particular I have heard some wild stories from older pilots I have known who flew in Vietnam. I have heard of an entire B-52 crew that would strip down naked and dance around the plane each time they dropped bombs over Vietnam. I spoke to an AC119 (early attempt at what is now the AC135) pilot who was actually ordered to kill an entire hurd of water buffalo. An F-4 pilot who went up to a tanker over Vietnam with no radio calls, filled the tanks (they let him with no questions asked) then lit the burners to see how fast the plane would go.

I don't know whether or not wet starts on A-4s was a real prank or a myth, but I have heard that if anyone would have done something crazy, McCain was the likely candidate. He was a wild guy in general, and he had the protection of the Vietnam war (it was much less likely that you would be grounded during the war) and his father the Admiral to keep him flying.

There are a few parts of this story that I don't fully understand though. As a pilot I had no say whatsoever on what bombs were loaded onto my plane. I did have the authority to say there was something wrong with the way the bombs were installed, but not what bombs were used. I suspect that like so many rumors there is likely some truth to this one, but not exactly as stated above. Perhaps McCain didn't repond as heroicly during the fire as he could have. Perhaps he should have done something with his bombs and fuel tanks that he did not do. Maybe he didn't shut down his engine, or maybe he had a wet start and didn't keep the engine turning to blow it out, or maybe he simply had a wet start and handled it correctly and it didn't really have anything to do with the accident.

As Wesly Clark said, being a pilot, even being shot down and held prisoner, even being tortured and following the order to not accept release until everyone is released, does not qualify one to be President. I have no reason to believe that McCain didn't behave with complete heroic bravery, but his military record should be open to question just like everything else in a politician's life.

captbilly wrote:

I don't know whether or not wet starts on A-4s was a real prank or a myth, but I have heard that if anyone would have done something crazy, McCain was the likely candidate. He was a wild guy in general, and he had the protection of the Vietnam war (it was much less likely that you would be grounded during the war) and his father the Admiral to keep him flying.

There are a few parts of this story that I don't fully understand though. As a pilot I had no say whatsoever on what bombs were loaded onto my plane. I did have the authority to say there was something wrong with the way the bombs were installed, but not what bombs were used. I suspect that like so many rumors there is likely some truth to this one, but not exactly as stated above. Perhaps McCain didn't repond as heroicly during the fire as he could have. Perhaps he should have done something with his bombs and fuel tanks that he did not do. Maybe he didn't shut down his engine, or maybe he had a wet start and didn't keep the engine turning to blow it out, or maybe he simply had a wet start and handled it correctly and it didn't really have anything to do with the accident.

Heroics? What are you talking about???

Wet start, dry start, no start, it all doesn't matter- his plane was hit on the deck by a malfunctioned 5" Zuni rocket from an F-4! Where are you coming from with this? What, when McCain egressed his burning plane, maybe he should have grabbed the burning centerline tank and thrown it overboard or something? Oh, and the weapons load too?

You may have been an ex military pilot, but you are not making any sense at all. However, you ARE coming across as a contributor to the McCain smear campaign. That being said- with all due respect, I question your validity as an ex military pilot due to the fact that the plain evidence and facts are right there. If you can't see the cause of the accident and the results thereafter, then you obviously have NOT been around in military aviation.

Hell, I could probably come on this Forum originally as a poser, plenty of people do it on the internet all of the time. Those are people who are lonely and have no lives. Fine and dandy, but don't try to slander a real veteran for the sake of politics if you are a military pretender. That is downright despicable- just as bad as fake Medal of Honor recipients, if not worse.

This is all political bullshit.

Sorry you feel that way- I hate to see veterans get slammed just because of politics. It is terrible to see people making something out of nothing for that reason.

The only official document created by the US Navy with regard to the Forrestal fire is the 7,500-page "Manual of the Judge Advocate General Basic Final Investigative Report Concerning the Fire on Board the USS Forrestal (CVA-59)".

The first page of the document states: "A review of the voluminous material contained in the Report of Investigation establishes the central fact that a ZUNI rocket was inadvertently fired from an F-4 aircraft (#110) and struck the external fuel tank of an A-4 aircraft (#405)...".

#405 was piloted by LCDR Fred White. John McCain was in #416, the next aircraft forward of 405.

Throughout the body of the findings there are numerous references to #405 and LCDR White. There are no references to #416 with the exception of two citing it as being struck by remnants of the explosions around 405.

McCain is not mentioned in the body of the report.

The only mentions of McCain in the report are his two statements, one the day after the fire, and the other about a week later during the proceedings of the investigation. In neither does he state with conviction that it was his plane that was hit. He said he thought it was his plane that was hit at first, but believes it was Fred White's that was.

Attached are two illustrations. The top is the best frame of the PLAT film which shows all the aircraft on the aft deck very shortly after the fire began. (Earlier frames are either too blurry or don't show all the aircraft.) I have identified the aircraft by modex number.

The bottom is a drawing of the aft deck which I've done showing the aircraft visible in the view from the PLAT frame. (The drawing is © J. M. Caiella.)

7,500 pages of official US Navy investigation, more than 100 witnesses, under oath and McCain's name never came up (with the exception of his statements as a witness).

McCain had nothing to do with the cause of the fire.

A great book on this topic is: Sailors to the End by Gregory A Freeman. It might be available at your local library. This book explains the WWII bombs that were sent out all the way to the final investigation. This book was written before John McCain was running for President, so it was not written was any political slant.

On a personal note, when I was at Hahn AB in the 80's and we were doing a load out on a 16 loading Mk82's. The crew chief mentioned in the safety briefing "we do not need a Forrestal incident." We all knew what he was talking about.

Forum: Mishaps

USS Forrestal Mishap being used to smear McCain