Forum: F-35 Lightning II

Today both SAAB and Lockheed Martin has submitted their quote for the next generation fighter for Norway.
(Unfortunatelly Eurofighter withdrew from the competition in December 2007)

This has been known for quite some time, but the interesting part is the price of the fighters;
Norway is looking for 48 new fighters to replace the Vipers we have today.

The price estimates that are beeing quoted in the Norwegian newspapers today are not exact, however these are the figures that have been cited by the 2 contenders:

Lockheed Martin: Less than 20 Billion NOK = USD 4 billion

SAAB: 24 Billion NOK in possible buy-back contracts for Norwegian industry, wich equate to more than 100% of the contract price.

From this, the conclusion can be drawn that the 48 new fighters will cost Norway around 416MNOK or 81,7 MUSD each.
(Today's Exchange - April 28th 2008 - rate 1 USD = 5,10 NOK)

The quoted figures are not stated wether to include operational expenses or not, so this is the big Question

still to be sorted out.

F-16.net Sponsor

This message from our sponsor will disappear if you log on as a member.

Newbie Joined: Feb 24, 2008 Posts: 2 Status: Offline

http://www.svd.se/nyheter/inrikes/artikel_1189845.svd
States that the SAAB offer is a fixed price contract in the 24-25BNOK-range including jets, maintenance, spares and training.

http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/fordon_m ... 338891.ece
Specifies more about the industrial contracts signed with Norwegian companies, among others Kongsberg(12BNOK), Thales Norway(2BNOK), Nammo(1BNOK).

/Bengt

So we are talking for 48 F-35 or 48 Gripen jets, and at the same price of 82M each. Do we know if RNoAF has released a "deadline" for the delivery of the fighters? Because in my humble opinion, while the F-35 seems a much better platform, Grippen should be available sooner as it is operational since October 1997. It's all a matter of needs (and politics Evil or Very Mad

).

The Vipers currently in service will be fased out during 2015-2020 sometime. All depending on wich candidate we end up with and the progress to date on it, I guess?

Also the Gripen version will most likely be a new version, with longer range amongst other things. So not really comparable with the existing Gripen in Swedish service today.

If they are keeping those RNoAF Vipers until 2016-17, I hope they get some MLU in the meanwhile? And why did EF pull out of the contention? Did they conclude it was a locked competition between SAAB and JSF only?

Personally, I would think a modernized F-16XL design, with AESA and CFT would have been optimal, given the superior range to patrol the huge coast-line, High Rate of Climb, and familiar infrastructure? Just my guess, but perhaps also, LM wouldn't blow any chances for JSF sales?

Geogen,
Our Vipers are already MLU'ed Wink

Eurofighter withdrew because they felt that the Norwegian goverment was too much in favour of the American alternative. Too bad, as I personally prefer the Typhoon myself.
On the other side, all the candidates are fairly new designs, and all new models have their teething problems.

As for our F-16's they are all mlu-modified, and as of today 40+ have been modified with M4.3 and falcon star modifications. Most airframes have between 4500 and 5500 hours now and after falcon star they should last 8000 hours. They should in theory last until 2015-2020, BUT then again thats just in theory.

In my theory, Smile

A fighter jet after 5,000 hrs should be upgraded, but relegated to G-restricted intercept duty, while new models are purchased for frontline fighter deterrence. Sort of like an over-lapping 50-50 active/passive force posture, rather than always a 100% pure, single-contract force status (until it the whole force is retired, etc). It's just so risky to gamble on replacing the 100% fleet, at the correct schedule and perfectly on time?

JpoLgr wrote:

So we are talking for 48 F-35 or 48 Gripen jets, and at the same price of 82M each. Do we know if RNoAF has released a "deadline" for the delivery of the fighters? Because in my humble opinion, while the F-35 seems a much better platform, Grippen should be available sooner as it is operational since October 1997. It's all a matter of needs (and politics Evil or Very Mad

).

But are the sums comparable? I think the Gripen package also include spare parts, maintenance, simulators and training etc. About the same deal Denmark got but not sure if it cover ~20 years?

C

The difference between a Gripen price and a JSF price is that the former is real and the latter is a projection.

Elite Joined: Aug 02, 2006 Posts: 932 Status: Offline

LowObservable wrote:

The difference between a Gripen price and a JSF price is that the former is real and the latter is a projection.

Well, whatever the "advanced" Gripen is, it hasn't been built yet. So it is also a projection.

I think what the JSF program is trying to do is adopt the commercial airliner model of pricing. You do all your bargaining, negotiations, etc. and lock in your price in USD at the signing of the purchase agreement. This is regardless of whether you take early production aircraft which cost more to build or post-rampup airframes which cost less, and regardless of whether your currency goes up or down against the USD at the time of delivery when the bulk of the money is paid. Basically, L-M and Uncle Sam will try to present you with an average price based on their projections. They'll lose money on early birds, make more on later ones. Basically, you buy it like you buy a 787 or an A380. L-M and Uncle Sam will profit from any excess payment or eat the difference.

Is the F-35 or Gripen Harpoon/Penguin capable?

vertical

Elite Joined: Aug 02, 2006 Posts: 932 Status: Offline

vertical wrote:

Is the F-35 or Gripen Harpoon/Penguin capable?

vertical

No, the Gripen Adv and F-35 will use the JSM as the primary AShM. Two will be carried internally.

dwightlooi wrote:

vertical wrote:

Is the F-35 or Gripen Harpoon/Penguin capable?

vertical

No, the Gripen Adv and F-35 will use the JSM as the primary AShM. Two will be carried internally.

Did some Google'ing and it looks like the Norwegians may in fact prefer another home made ASM, as well as partnering up with Lockheed to sell it to other F-35 customers?

http://www.kongsberg.com/eng/kda/news/d ... p?id=33279

vertical

Dwight, the avdanced gripen prototype was rolled out 2 weeks ago; looked quite a mean piece of kit.

Interesting note is this is not the only major contract going on in Europe. The Swiss are in the market to replace their F-5's. The contenders are the F-18E/F, Rafale, Typhoon, Gripen Adv.... Boeing have just pulled out so its a three horse race.

Gripen is seen as the favourite even though its single engined due to its short-field capability.

Of note, the Norwegians have always liked a short field capability aircraft hence why the drag chute is installed on Norwegian Vipers.

Andy

dwightlooi wrote:

LowObservable wrote:

The difference between a Gripen price and a JSF price is that the former is real and the latter is a projection.

Well, whatever the "advanced" Gripen is, it hasn't been built yet. So it is also a projection.

I think what the JSF program is trying to do is adopt the commercial airliner model of pricing. You do all your bargaining, negotiations, etc. and lock in your price in USD at the signing of the purchase agreement. This is regardless of whether you take early production aircraft which cost more to build or post-rampup airframes which cost less, and regardless of whether your currency goes up or down against the USD at the time of delivery when the bulk of the money is paid. Basically, L-M and Uncle Sam will try to present you with an average price based on their projections. They'll lose money on early birds, make more on later ones. Basically, you buy it like you buy a 787 or an A380. L-M and Uncle Sam will profit from any excess payment or eat the difference.

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

Tenders submitted by SAAB and Lockheed Martin to Norway