Forum: F-16 Procedures

Forum Veteran Joined: Nov 07, 2003 - 09:12 PM Posts: 901

Hey guys,
I have posted the query on ARC, didn't manage to have an answer then. Still waiting for a friend's reply though. I thought I will post the question here.

I am wondering, do any of the LANTIRN operator actually use the Targeting pod FLIR picture in A-A mode for BVR visual identification before a call for Fox 1/3? I am also curious, with the Fire Control Radar painting the bogey, the FLIR picture is presented on the MFD instantly with the TGP/A-A mode selected? The 2 sensors are working hand in hand in such miracle?!

Thanks for any responses.Cheers, Very Happy

By the way, I don't suppose this FLIR picture is BVR? Picture from F-16.net photo gallery.

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Not BVR for sure - the TGP is in wide field of view (see WIDE at top of screen, under what would be OSB 3 on the MFD bezel) so he is in pretty close. IIRC the Wide FOV is about 6 deg.

Forum Veteran Joined: Nov 07, 2003 - 09:12 PM Posts: 901

Hi Greg,
good rationale back there. And the hotest spot is the engine of the tanker?

cheers, Very Happy

I'm kind of curious/confused about that, because the image looks more like B&W TV, not an IR image. If it were IR I would think the sky would be very dark (cold) in the image and, yes, the engines would be lighter/hotter.

Notice the KC-10 is trailing a hose'n'drogue for the AV-8B, not a boom for F-16s.

You're right - this is no IR image (you can read the markings on the aircraft and there's no way they would be hotter/colder than the rest of the fuselage). Does this mean you can get TV footage from the TGP ? Didn't know that.

I'm also guessing the "camera ship" is flying formation with the other aircraft, just waiting its turn to take on fuel. It's too close to be flying towards the tanker with the TGP looking forward. So this means the TGP is pointing sideways (judging from the tailplane angles I'd guess it's looking sideways at an angle close to 90 degrees). At this angle, it would definitely NOT be slaved to the radar.

Probably it has been cued manually on the tanker just for the photo-op.

stefaan

Stefaan, you are right about the 'camera ship' - see the comment I added to this photo in the gallery.

After thinking about this, I believe this may be a LITENING II pod, not LANTIRN TGP - LITENING II has a CCD TV camera, LANTIRN doesn't.

Habu2, the comment in the gallery is spot-on Smile

To answer Pumpkins orginal question, I don't think a long-range FLIR image would do much help in ID'ing a bogey. A Flir image only shows hot spots (white) and cold spots (dark). You do not see any markings or colors.

I don't know how good the Litening II FLIR is, but I would think that even recognizing an aircraft from an IR image would be pretty hard. It would be next to impossible to distinguish an F-15 from a MiG-29 or Su-27 for example.

This is an image of the destroyer USS Bagley through the IIR head if an AGM-65F Maverick. The bottom image is from the terminal homing stage, while the top image is from the limit of the pilot's visual range. As you can see, you can barely make out the shape of the destroyer, let alone distinguish any details.

<IMG SRC="http://www.f-16.net/graphics/65-viewr.jpg">

See our<a href="http://www.f-16.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=listarticles&secid=2"> F-16 Armament</A> section for more info on the AGM-65 Maverick.

Would be interesting to see some IR images of aircraft !

stefaan

LITENING II resolution is approx 4x better than LANTIRN from what I have heard - more lines, more pixels.

Hi all,

This is my first post here. I hope I can provide some info.

The picture is from a Texas (TX tailcode) National Guard F-16 blk 30, over Afghanistan, using Litening II, or a Harrier II using a similar pod.
(the two aircraft behind the KC-10 suggest that the wingman of one of them acquired the image).

Distance is minimal as indicated above because of the "WIDE" setting. And do not forget that Litening II has a day CCD camera (the operational LANTIRN does not).

Lajes

Forum Veteran Joined: Nov 07, 2003 - 09:12 PM Posts: 901

Hey guys, great responses!

Stefaan, thanks for answering my initial question. Articles on the TGP states that, the FLIR is used to identify terrain features and/or targets at long range. I guess not so much a primary, but a secondary usage. Well, maybe the Viper flyers can enlighten us.

Nice catch on the Charged Couple Device Television picture, Greg. And thanks for the clarification, Lajes. Do join us as a registered member and hope to see more of your postings in the near future.

A couple more questions on the Litening.

First and foremost, I don't suppose the pilot is able to select between CCD-TV and FLIR picture, can they? From the Litening Fact Sheet, I am satisfied that the switch is fully automatic?

I am rather puzzled when the fact sheet mentions that The wide FOV provides a HUD image that can be used in low altitude flight at night. Just like the NVP! Minus the TFR of course. But the fact that, the Litening is mounted on 5R makes me think that the FLIR picture is not wired to the HUD without modification. Says if I were to installed both the NVP and the LiteningII, and turn on the raster image of the HUD, which pictures will I see?

Thanks again for all the responses!
cheers, Very Happy

Pumpkin wrote:

Articles on the TGP states that, the FLIR is used to identify terrain features and/or targets at long range

It's a lot easier to tell an oil refinery from, say, an airfield, than it is to distinguish between two aircraft. So I don't think the above necessarily applies to A-A combat.

stefaan

Most of us are familiar with a television (and computer) image, these are known in the display world as raster displays - so many pixels per line, so many lines per screen. The MFDS in the F-16 is a raster display, approximately 525x525 (pixels x lines) The new CMFDS may be higher resolution, I'm not sure.

The symbology in the HUD is drawn with a technology called calligraphic, or stroke rendering. The only comparison I can think of would be an oscilloscope display. A conventional HUD can only draw stroke symbology, it cannot render a raster video image - a special (and expensive) video combiner is required.

Two acronyms some of you may have seen knocked around are the WAC HUD and the WAR HUD. These stand for Wide Angle Conventional and Wide Angle Raster, respectively. A WAC HUD can only render symbology, where the WAR HUD in most (not all) Block 40/42 F-16s can overlay the raster video from the sensor with the stroke symbology in the HUD. So, the *only* F-16 that can display sensor imagery (FLIR or TV) in the HUD would be a Block 40/42 with a WAR HUD. All other F-16s must view sensor imagery on the MFDS as is shown in the photo in this thread.

As far as the selection of the display type (FLIR, CCD TV) it is not automatic. You can see on the left hand side of the image the mnemonic CCD is displayed, the pilot selects between CCD and FLIR with the adjacent OSB (or via HOTAS).

GregD

<b>TGP A-A Mode</b>:
The TGP A-A mode provides visual target identification and tracking of A-A targets. In A-A the TGP is initially commanded to the FCR LOS if the FCR is tracking an A-A target. When the TGP is not the SOI and the FCR is not tracking a target, the TGP LOS is positioned to 0 degrees azimuth and ?3 degrees elevation. The TGP can track and maintain an A-A target independent of the FCR LOS, resulting in two A/A TD boxes/TLL's. The FCR and/or AIM-9 missiles can be slaved to the TGP LOS. The AIM-9 missile can be slaved to either the TGP or the FCR LOS. The pilot has the option to fire the laser for accurate ranging data, but it does not override the slant range sent by the FCR. Instead the TGP laser range is displayed immediately below the slant range.

Once the TGP has been commanded to track, the TGP LOS and the FCR LOS are independent.

The TGP LOS is shown as a dotted 50-mr A-A TD box in the HUD. If the TGP LOS is outside the HUD field-of-view, a dotted TLL and target angle are displayed. The FCR A-A TD box is a solid 50-mr box.

Although the TGP LOS is independent of the FCR LOS, depressing TMS right (independent of SOI) commands the FCR into ACM boresight along the TGP LOS when the TGP is tracking and the FCR is in ACM.

If an AIM-9 is the selected weapon and is caged in the Slave submode, it is slaved to the LOS of the SOI sensor. Whenever the AIM-9 LOS is within 1.5 degrees of the sensor it is slaved to (correlation), a "C" is placed to the left of the target angle indicator for that sensor.

Targeting Pod TV (RDP-1170)

Forum Veteran Joined: Nov 07, 2003 - 09:12 PM Posts: 901

Wow Greg,

that was some explanation you have back there. Thanks!
I am still curious if the FLIR/CCD-TV picture from sensor mounted on station 5R is wired to a WAR HUD for Viper 40/42 and above. Regarding the CCD symbology on the TGP page, it doesn't look like an OSS option to me, from where I am sitting.

cheers, Very Happy

Forum Veteran Joined: Nov 07, 2003 - 09:12 PM Posts: 901

Hi guest,

Sorry I am not familiar with Targeting Pod TV (RDP-1170), I hope that was not your signed off. Razz

Thanks for the detailed explanation. It took me some time to digest the technical details. More questions from your reply, if you don't mind.

[1] The FCR and/or AIM-9 missiles can be slaved to the TGP LOS. The AIM-9 missile can be slaved to either the TGP or the FCR LOS. What about TGP slaved to the FCR?

[2] You have used the AIM-9 in your reply. I guess the functions work for both the AIM-7 and the AIM-120 too? Cause, I thought if the driver is working on FCR/ACM mode with the AIM-9, he is in for a dogfight. He ain't have time to work on the TGP.

[3] Since the TGP laser ranging information is not feeding the FCR/AAM, I guess it is only meant as an advisory information for the pilot, to aid him in calling a FOX1/3?

Thanks again for taking the time.
cheers, Very Happy

Forum: F-16 Procedures

TGP for BVR visual identification