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Newbie Joined: Nov 29, 2006 Posts: 2 Status: Offline

Hello all!
I'm a big Viper fan and I've been lurking around here for sometime now, enjoying reading stuff from people who really know about and work with Vipers everyday.

Being from Croatia, I would like to ask you a question about this article:US offering Croatia free F-16 fighter jets

Although as I said I'm huge fan of F-16 I'm little bit concerned about my country getting Vipers from storage, especially when competition is brand new Swedish Gripen.

As I understood those are F-16A's and would have to get significant upgrades (MLU?)to be competitive with Gripen.

On the other hand, any Viper is better than MiG21, let alone the MiG that doesn't fly Smile

Any thoughts on this pls?

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Stimer
Check out these pictures.
http://www.f-16.net/gallery_item41171.html
and
http://www.f-16.net/gallery_item41174.html

Some of these may cause you to think it's not a good idea but after you see what they do to get it ready to fly I think you will feel better.
Welcome to the world of Viper power Thumb

Well, with the MLU upgrade, it should be able to meet the standards of modern aireal battles. With AMRAAM the viper can be a heck of a competitor.

It has a good radar, its reliable and its a lot of countries's first choice. I know i have a viper bias but, hey it proved itself. I think it could cover Croatia's needs.

I myself love the viper however disregarding that and looking on the long term I would say: go Gripen. There's a reason that MLU countries are looking at fighters to replace their MLU's and there's a reason the Gripen is one of the fighters being considered by most if not all.

On the short term yes it's great for your countries wallet but in the long term this really is nothing more then the USA trying to market future sales.

Stimer wrote:

Hello all!
I'm a big Viper fan and I've been lurking around here for sometime now, enjoying reading stuff from people who really know about and work with Vipers everyday.

Being from Croatia, I would like to ask you a question about this article:US offering Croatia free F-16 fighter jets

Although as I said I'm huge fan of F-16 I'm little bit concerned about my country getting Vipers from storage, especially when competition is brand new Swedish Gripen.

As I understood those are F-16A's and would have to get significant upgrades (MLU?)to be competitive with Gripen.

On the other hand, any Viper is better than MiG21, let alone the MiG that doesn't fly Smile

Any thoughts on this pls?

F-16 has more ordnance capability but the Gripen is great for small countries who don't need long range aircraft. They are smarter in AA combat and don't bleed as much airspeed in dogfights albeit with less T/W ratio. You cant go wrong with either aircraft. Personally I would take the Gripen as opposed to the upgraded falcons, only because the gripens come brand new and the entire service life in front of them and the most modern hardware you can get for light fighters out of the box.

Another advantage is that Gripens are even easier to maintain with little resources than the falcons and they were designed to operate anywhere with a flat surface to take off and land on.

Don't get me wrong, F-16 is my all time favorite, but what concerns economy and most bang for the buck I think the Grippen is slightly better.

Newbie Joined: Nov 29, 2006 Posts: 2 Status: Offline

Well, MLU upgrade seems nice, and not too expensive but I'm concerned because those airframes must be like 20-25 years old?

Although I've read here that ADF Vipers now at storage have relatively low flying hours... those airframes with MLU upgrade should be ok i guess...

Ah well, it will be a political decision I believe, it almost always is.

ACMIguy, i can already see the Croatian press screamin' over that first picture:
"Now we know why its FREE!!!" Laughing

Anyway, I also think that Gripen is a complete package, brand new airplane and big offset program to go with it, but I just can't help wanting to see Croatian marked Vipers flying over my house(I live near and work on an airport) Smile

The actual chronological age of the airframes is not important. Whats more important is how much they have flown.
An airframe can be brought back to airworthiness from storage provided that there isnt any corrosion damage. In my countries case all Peace atlantis II aircraft were ex ANG ADF's with less than 2000 flight hours, curiously this is an aproximate figure to those of PA I originaly built for PoAF so they have all still aproximatly 6000 left in their service lives, that is 5000 (minus 2000 already spent) of the original airframe life and adding 3000 more with the falcon up structural reinforcements. IF your buyng dutch or belgium aircraft then your much more limited because those planes have been flown a decade plus more than ours. We do have 12 for sale but unlikely that well ever find any interesd custumers and plans have been added with the contingency they will end up in service here anyway.

Stimer wrote:

Well, MLU upgrade seems nice, and not too expensive but I'm concerned because those airframes must be like 20-25 years old?

Although I've read here that ADF Vipers now at storage have relatively low flying hours... those airframes with MLU upgrade should be ok i guess...

Ah well, it will be a political decision I believe, it almost always is.

ACMIguy, i can already see the Croatian press screamin' over that first picture:
"Now we know why its FREE!!!" Laughing

Anyway, I also think that Gripen is a complete package, brand new airplane and big offset program to go with it, but I just can't help wanting to see Croatian marked Vipers flying over my house(I live near and work on an airport) Smile

Yes the Grippen would have that "new car smell" but the Vipers have added value in availability of spare parts and low maintenance. The F-16 has a very high mission success rate compared to other types.
The USAF had planned years ago to stock pile a number of F-16 blocks into the ANG and Reserves just to keep the airframe time down.
Traditionally the ANG and Reserves maintain their aircraft better. I know some active guys will probably disagree and this is not intended as a slam against them.
The Guard and Reserves do not fly as often as the active duty which = less airframe time, and the people at the Guard and Res. have more experience, most having come from active duty and remained at one place longer.
I knew the pictures would be a shock but the civilian technicians are highly trained and experienced people who know how to build jets from the ground up.
The US supplying your country with these jets is a major step forward, building a lasting relationship both politically and economically.
And FREE is always good!

Elite 1K Joined: Apr 26, 2004 Posts: 1198 Status: Offline

I have always had the saying that when someone offers you something for free, that is exactly what you get ....nothing! Very Happy

Newbie Joined: Jul 27, 2008 Posts: 2 Status: Offline

GO for Grippen I say! Sweed's are offering big & juicy offset program and Americans are offering good night stories! Smile

Also Sweed's are offering 4 Göteborg class corvettes for CRO navy in the package. Regarding the donation of F-16, in this case free is not exactly FREE. After donation Croatia would have to modernize those aircraft, build new infrastructure for them (hangars, airstrips...) and after that it would be very hard to switch to some other European aircraft.

Newbie Joined: Jul 27, 2008 Posts: 2 Status: Offline

Reports from this year Red Flag that took place over Alaska (Swedish Grippen's) and from the exercises with Hungarian Grippen's says that JAS-39 is very difficult to locate on the radar screens because of the size and composite. My opinion is that JAS-39 in very short time will evolve to a very strong 4.5 generation aircraft. Of course it wont have first-day stealth like F-35 but I think it's the best buy for Croatia.

Last edited by ViperKeeper on Jul 27, 2008 - 05:53 PM; edited 1 time in total

Gripen is making a good deal because no one else wants them.

Guy's, it's Gripen! Not Grippen.. Doh

Sweden will always put out a potent and modern military system on ground, sea and in air. No question. It's their national protocol to ensure their defense prowess. Exports are a natural aspect of any advanced tech developments.

It will be very interesting to see specs and improvements of NG Gripen compared to original tranche.

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