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asiatrails wrote:

A bad contact on the boom takes out the boom and the ability to refuel any aircraft which rely on it..

It takes one hell of a hit to damage the boom to the point where it's code 3, not saying it has not happened, but not real often.

asiatrails wrote:

The basket and probe is more flexible so that it is harder to have a damaging contact, if you do then the other baskets are not affected and the tanker can still pump gas. The biggest trap with the basket is trying to chase it, stay focused on the alignment markers, keep the closure rate low but above 2.5 knots, and you will make good contact.

True, but most of the time the problem is not with the boom, or the basket, it's a problem with some other part of the AR system. Over in the desert we had more problems with leaking baskets causing lost tanker sorties than we did with bad booms. In fact I have never had a code 3 boom in 11 years of booming, but have had about 4 bad baskets and we fly with a boom about 99 percent of the time.

asiatrails wrote:

The basket and probe allows one tanker to refuel, large, strike, ground attack, transport aircraft and helicopters in one sortie. The primary user of the boom system is the USAF, this reliance caused significant problems when planning allied IFR support during Desert Storm.

Again all true, but there is no jet tanker in the world that can fly slow enough to refuel helecopters, so that is left up to the Prop-driven guys, and if you have ever refueled a heavy aircraft with a basket such as the Nato AWACS then you know the meaning of the word frustration. It is not practical in the real world. For instance let's say you need an offload of 80,000 pounds for the AWACS. With the basket that is going to take you about 90 minutes on track, by the time you figure the offload rate, and the number of contacts it's going to take becasue the pilot cannot possibly hand onto the basket for that long. With the boom it's going to take about 20 minutes and normally only 1 contact. So you can just plan on having 1 tanker to 1 heavy reciver if that heavy has a basket. In the end the boom is the best way to do A/R. But the basket has the advantage of being a small system that can get put on almost any aircraft and turn that aircraft into an instant tanker.

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Elite Joined: Apr 19, 2005 Posts: 658 Status: Offline

Conan wrote:

Corsair1963 wrote:

Nice Pics! Personally, I am very impressed with both Spanish and Italian Naval Construction! Very capable design for there size and very high quality! Cool

Just a thought..............wouldn't it be interesting to see a Spanish Based BPE Carrier? Equipped with F-35B's of course! Maybe that is what Spain will do when she decides to replace Principe de Asturias.......... Wink

What something like this?

http://www.buquesdeguerra.es/

Click on Botadura Juan CarlosI link in top left corner...

It would very much look like that. Yet, internally it would be design with a large hanger and no spaces for land vehicles or troops.

**posted on wrong thread**

Newbie Joined: Apr 01, 2008 Posts: 4 Status: Offline

Is there not a further need for the probe, from some of the alied air forces buying the F-35a?

Elite Joined: Apr 30, 2005 Posts: 649 Status: Offline

giblets wrote:

Is there not a further need for the probe, from some of the alied air forces buying the F-35a?

As the vast majority of the rest of the world use the probe and basket; I expect that the F-35A could also be equipped with a probe if a customer insisted and bought enough of them.

Customer operational flexibility is why the F-35B and C models will be equipped with a probe,

Elite Joined: Apr 19, 2005 Posts: 658 Status: Offline

asiatrails wrote:

giblets wrote:

Is there not a further need for the probe, from some of the alied air forces buying the F-35a?

As the vast majority of the rest of the world use the probe and basket; I expect that the F-35A could also be equipped with a probe if a customer insisted and bought enough of them.

Customer operational flexibility is why the F-35B and C models will be equipped with a probe,

I have no doubt if a customer wanted a probe/basket refueling system on a F-35A. Lockheed Martin would be happy to provide one! Really, I love this concept of mixing and matching different features among models! Personally, I think once the production line gets rolling. They won't be able to build them fast enough.................. Wink

Corsair1963 wrote:

asiatrails wrote:

giblets wrote:

Is there not a further need for the probe, from some of the alied air forces buying the F-35a?

As the vast majority of the rest of the world use the probe and basket; I expect that the F-35A could also be equipped with a probe if a customer insisted and bought enough of them.

Customer operational flexibility is why the F-35B and C models will be equipped with a probe,

I have no doubt if a customer wanted a probe/basket refueling system on a F-35A. Lockheed Martin would be happy to provide one! Really, I love this concept of mixing and matching different features among models! Personally, I think once the production line gets rolling. They won't be able to build them fast enough.................. Wink

The only problem for export customers is when you customize your purchase significantly you end up with platforms that are no longer identical to USAF/USN models, which can make it harder to dovetail into existing block upgrade programs. This was a problem with the RAAF's F/A-18A/C/B/D fleet, they were Australianised to a small extent, but enough to exclude our bugs from participating in the USN's C/D upgrade, we had to do it ourselves, later at more cost. Now i'm sure a probe & shoot system woudln't do that alone, but if you customize your model too much it will cost you in this respect.

Elite Joined: Apr 19, 2005 Posts: 658 Status: Offline

Ozzy_Blizzard wrote:

Corsair1963 wrote:

asiatrails wrote:

giblets wrote:

Is there not a further need for the probe, from some of the alied air forces buying the F-35a?

As the vast majority of the rest of the world use the probe and basket; I expect that the F-35A could also be equipped with a probe if a customer insisted and bought enough of them.

Customer operational flexibility is why the F-35B and C models will be equipped with a probe,

I have no doubt if a customer wanted a probe/basket refueling system on a F-35A. Lockheed Martin would be happy to provide one! Really, I love this concept of mixing and matching different features among models! Personally, I think once the production line gets rolling. They won't be able to build them fast enough.................. Wink

The only problem for export customers is when you customize your purchase significantly you end up with platforms that are no longer identical to USAF/USN models, which can make it harder to dovetail into existing block upgrade programs. This was a problem with the RAAF's F/A-18A/C/B/D fleet, they were Australianised to a small extent, but enough to exclude our bugs from participating in the USN's C/D upgrade, we had to do it ourselves, later at more cost. Now i'm sure a probe & shoot system woudln't do that alone, but if you customize your model too much it will cost you in this respect.

Totally different animal...............Your talking about customizing an aircraft with something other than original equipment? I am talking about exchanging original equipment between models. I the cast of the F-35 that is part of the whole concept. With three different models sharing one airframe. The only difference really is the options........... Wink

Corsair1963 wrote:

Ozzy_Blizzard wrote:

Corsair1963 wrote:

asiatrails wrote:

giblets wrote:

Is there not a further need for the probe, from some of the alied air forces buying the F-35a?

As the vast majority of the rest of the world use the probe and basket; I expect that the F-35A could also be equipped with a probe if a customer insisted and bought enough of them.

Customer operational flexibility is why the F-35B and C models will be equipped with a probe,

I have no doubt if a customer wanted a probe/basket refueling system on a F-35A. Lockheed Martin would be happy to provide one! Really, I love this concept of mixing and matching different features among models! Personally, I think once the production line gets rolling. They won't be able to build them fast enough.................. Wink

The only problem for export customers is when you customize your purchase significantly you end up with platforms that are no longer identical to USAF/USN models, which can make it harder to dovetail into existing block upgrade programs. This was a problem with the RAAF's F/A-18A/C/B/D fleet, they were Australianised to a small extent, but enough to exclude our bugs from participating in the USN's C/D upgrade, we had to do it ourselves, later at more cost. Now i'm sure a probe & shoot system woudln't do that alone, but if you customize your model too much it will cost you in this respect.

Totally different animal...............Your talking about customizing an aircraft with something other than original equipment? I am talking about exchanging original equipment between models. I the cast of the F-35 that is part of the whole concept. With three different models sharing one airframe. The only difference really is the options........... Wink

Well alot of these options are hardly "plug and play". But like I said before, if someone is willing to pay engineers to make it work, the options are endless (sorta).

Elite Joined: Apr 19, 2005 Posts: 658 Status: Offline

LMAggie wrote:

Corsair1963 wrote:

Ozzy_Blizzard wrote:

Corsair1963 wrote:

asiatrails wrote:

giblets wrote:

Is there not a further need for the probe, from some of the alied air forces buying the F-35a?

As the vast majority of the rest of the world use the probe and basket; I expect that the F-35A could also be equipped with a probe if a customer insisted and bought enough of them.

Customer operational flexibility is why the F-35B and C models will be equipped with a probe,

I have no doubt if a customer wanted a probe/basket refueling system on a F-35A. Lockheed Martin would be happy to provide one! Really, I love this concept of mixing and matching different features among models! Personally, I think once the production line gets rolling. They won't be able to build them fast enough.................. Wink

The only problem for export customers is when you customize your purchase significantly you end up with platforms that are no longer identical to USAF/USN models, which can make it harder to dovetail into existing block upgrade programs. This was a problem with the RAAF's F/A-18A/C/B/D fleet, they were Australianised to a small extent, but enough to exclude our bugs from participating in the USN's C/D upgrade, we had to do it ourselves, later at more cost. Now i'm sure a probe & shoot system woudln't do that alone, but if you customize your model too much it will cost you in this respect.

Totally different animal...............Your talking about customizing an aircraft with something other than original equipment? I am talking about exchanging original equipment between models. I the cast of the F-35 that is part of the whole concept. With three different models sharing one airframe. The only difference really is the options........... Wink

Well alot of these options are hardly "plug and play". But like I said before, if someone is willing to pay engineers to make it work, the options are endless (sorta).

Who say's you can't "plug and play" on the F-35 Assembly Line? Considering all three models share the same airframe. It is very likely both refueling systems are totally interchangable without modifying the design. Wink

Corsair1963 wrote:

LMAggie wrote:

Corsair1963 wrote:

Ozzy_Blizzard wrote:

Corsair1963 wrote:

asiatrails wrote:

giblets wrote:

Is there not a further need for the probe, from some of the alied air forces buying the F-35a?

As the vast majority of the rest of the world use the probe and basket; I expect that the F-35A could also be equipped with a probe if a customer insisted and bought enough of them.

Customer operational flexibility is why the F-35B and C models will be equipped with a probe,

I have no doubt if a customer wanted a probe/basket refueling system on a F-35A. Lockheed Martin would be happy to provide one! Really, I love this concept of mixing and matching different features among models! Personally, I think once the production line gets rolling. They won't be able to build them fast enough.................. Wink

The only problem for export customers is when you customize your purchase significantly you end up with platforms that are no longer identical to USAF/USN models, which can make it harder to dovetail into existing block upgrade programs. This was a problem with the RAAF's F/A-18A/C/B/D fleet, they were Australianised to a small extent, but enough to exclude our bugs from participating in the USN's C/D upgrade, we had to do it ourselves, later at more cost. Now i'm sure a probe & shoot system woudln't do that alone, but if you customize your model too much it will cost you in this respect.

Totally different animal...............Your talking about customizing an aircraft with something other than original equipment? I am talking about exchanging original equipment between models. I the cast of the F-35 that is part of the whole concept. With three different models sharing one airframe. The only difference really is the options........... Wink

Well alot of these options are hardly "plug and play". But like I said before, if someone is willing to pay engineers to make it work, the options are endless (sorta).

Who say's you can't "plug and play" on the F-35 Assembly Line? Considering all three models share the same airframe. It is very likely both refueling systems are totally interchangable without modifying the design. Wink

I can only wink back. Wink

Corsair1963 wrote:

Who say's you can't "plug and play" on the F-35 Assembly Line? Considering all three models share the same airframe. It is very likely both refueling systems are totally interchangable without modifying the design. Wink

Wow. Spoken as only someone who has never worked in the military acquisition system could say it. Rolling Eyes

Elite Joined: Apr 20, 2005 Posts: 1028 Status: Offline

Corsair1963 wrote:

Who say's you can't "plug and play" on the F-35 Assembly Line? Considering all three models share the same airframe. It is very likely both refueling systems are totally interchangable without modifying the design. Wink

Errr...No.

Elite Joined: Apr 19, 2005 Posts: 658 Status: Offline

habu2 wrote:

Corsair1963 wrote:

Who say's you can't "plug and play" on the F-35 Assembly Line? Considering all three models share the same airframe. It is very likely both refueling systems are totally interchangable without modifying the design. Wink

Wow. Spoken as only someone who has never worked in the military acquisition system could say it. Rolling Eyes

So, a common airframe using two different sub-systems. Yet, neither are interchanageable? Sorry, but production lines all over the world do that every day...............Maybe the Aerospace Industry should take a lesson or two from the International Auto Industry. Clearly, is far from a complex issue....

Corsair1963 wrote:

habu2 wrote:

Corsair1963 wrote:

Who say's you can't "plug and play" on the F-35 Assembly Line? Considering all three models share the same airframe. It is very likely both refueling systems are totally interchangable without modifying the design. Wink

Wow. Spoken as only someone who has never worked in the military acquisition system could say it. Rolling Eyes

So, a common airframe using two different sub-systems. Yet, neither are interchanageable? Sorry, but production lines all over the world do that every day...............Maybe the Aerospace Industry should take a lesson or two from the International Auto Industry. Clearly, is far from a complex issue....

You start doing that and your NGUATF/AWP (Next Generation Ultra Advanced Tactical Fighter/Attack War Plane) will start to look like a 2009 Chrysler Town & Country minivan...

I will go to my grave absolutely convinced that no two F-16s in the world are identical to each other. Every one of them is different in some respect. The same probably goes for commercial aircraft, too. If the next customer wants something different from the last guy, he'll get it.

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Refueling probe