F-16 Reference
5th Gen Fighters
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asiatrails
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Posted: Aug 21, 2008 - 07:58 PM
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Elite

Joined: Aug 30, 2005
Posts: 649
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Obamanite wrote:
I suspect Asiatrails is wargaming right now vs. a squadron of F-35s shouting, "All your base are belongs to us!", shooting 'em all down from 100 NM away, employing the very same "unclassified" technologies and tactics he's developed to defeat the scourge of VLO aircraft...
Ah yes, the intro to Zero Wing by Toaplan, 1989 vintage, SEGA Genesis - were you even alive back then?
The correct phrase is first:
よう、おまいら元気!? - How are you gentlemen?
このスレは俺達が乗っとりますた。 - All you base are belong to us
本当にありがとうございますた - You are on the way to destruction
Never really understood who or what CATS was, good game for its time though.
Now to serious stuff, I appreciate your coherent response and suggest that you sit back and wait in line for a tour of the soylent green factory, it will change your position in life. |
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Sponsor
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Posted: Aug 29, 2008 - 7:26 PM
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F-16.net Sponsor
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Obamanite
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Posted: Aug 21, 2008 - 09:51 PM
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Veteran

Joined: Aug 26, 2008
Posts: 262
Status: Offline
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asiatrails wrote:
Obamanite wrote:
I suspect Asiatrails is wargaming right now vs. a squadron of F-35s shouting, "All your base are belongs to us!", shooting 'em all down from 100 NM away, employing the very same "unclassified" technologies and tactics he's developed to defeat the scourge of VLO aircraft...
Ah yes, the intro to Zero Wing by Toaplan, 1989 vintage, SEGA Genesis - were you even alive back then?
The correct phrase is first:
よう、おまいら元気!? - How are you gentlemen?
このスレは俺達が乗っとりますた。 - All you base are belong to us
本当にありがとうございますた - You are on the way to destruction
Never really understood who or what CATS was, good game for its time though.
Now to serious stuff, I appreciate your coherent response and suggest that you sit back and wait in line for a tour of the soylent green factory, it will change your position in life.
What was I doing back in 1989? That was the first year of the George H. W. Bush administration, thinking, boy, how did we ever elect this thousand points of light, kinder, gentler America bozo, never imagining he had a son stashed away in Texas that would be an even worse president... At any rate, I know all about soylent green... IT'S MADE OUT OF PEOPLE!!! AAAAHHHH!!! |
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asiatrails
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Posted: Aug 22, 2008 - 01:56 AM
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Elite

Joined: Aug 30, 2005
Posts: 649
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Well, you answered the question - doing nothing - and then ranting about a personal opinion - totally unrelated to any thing of value to this thread.
I have gone back and read your posts, in summary they are biased and exhibit behavior very similar to that of a Troll or a Sockpuppet. Either way I believe that DNFTFT is a suitable closing statement.
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Obamanite
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Posted: Aug 22, 2008 - 02:09 AM
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Veteran

Joined: Aug 26, 2008
Posts: 262
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asiatrails wrote:
Well, you answered the question - doing nothing - and then ranting about a personal opinion - totally unrelated to any thing of value to this thread.
I have gone back and read your posts, in summary they are biased and exhibit behavior very similar to that of a Troll or a Sockpuppet. Either way I believe that DNFTFT is a suitable closing statement.
Asia
Umm, ok... |
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checksixx
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Posted: Aug 22, 2008 - 03:22 AM
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Elite

Joined: Aug 20, 2005
Posts: 1028
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F15F16F22F35 wrote:
6 internal AMRAAMs on the F-35? COOL!!!  Are they working on this right now or is this after SDD?
No plans for 6 internal AIM-120's right now. No one here will believe it. The thread has spiraled out of control. |
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dwightlooi
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Posted: Aug 22, 2008 - 04:04 AM
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Elite

Joined: Aug 02, 2006
Posts: 940
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checksixx wrote:
F15F16F22F35 wrote:
6 internal AMRAAMs on the F-35? COOL!!!  Are they working on this right now or is this after SDD?
No plans for 6 internal AIM-120's right now. No one here will believe it. The thread has spiraled out of control.
The F-35 Program Office said that:-
(1) The F-35 will enter service with the ability to carry 4 AAMs internally plus up to 10 additional missiles externally.
(2) The F-35 weapon bays have room for additional air-to-air missiles and studies have been conducted on advancing launcher technology to capitalize on the additional space to carry more than 4 AAMs.
(3) Currently, there are no US plans, schedules or funding for the implementation of multi-AAM launchers for the internal stations.
Anything else you may or may not have heard is bullshit.
In short, 6 AAMs is physically possible but is not being pursed by the USA right now because it is low on the priority list. Unless Israel, Australia, the UK or some other F-35 partners who may be using the F-35 as their primary high superiority fighter chooses to develop a twin ejector for the F-35 internal bays using a few million of their own currency, such a device will not be available until the high priority tasks have been retired.
The priority is to stay on the revised schedule and get the F-35 into low-rate-initial-production by 2009, full rate production (132+ aircrafts per year) and IOC by 2012. The aircraft has to enter service with the baseline capability to prosecute the vast majority of anticipated A2A and precision strike missions with the core subset of possible loadouts. Additional capabilities and loadout options can come later.
http://www.jsf.mil/downloads/documents/ ... 202007.pdf
The other thing to consider that the AIM-120C/D may no longer be the contemporary AAM of the US armed services in 2016. There should be a new missile or one actively being developed. So, a question one has to ask is whether it is a wise thing to bend over backwards to squeeze out a dual ejector at a time when schedules and funding can least afford it only to get it in service in time for it to be retired. |
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checksixx
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Posted: Aug 22, 2008 - 04:45 AM
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Elite

Joined: Aug 20, 2005
Posts: 1028
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| Great, Thanks for backing me up on that dwight...Good info. |
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Corsair1963
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Posted: Aug 22, 2008 - 04:58 AM
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Elite

Joined: Aug 19, 2005
Posts: 658
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| I think its noteworthy that many F-35 Partners will use the F-35 as there primary Air Defense Platform! Personally, I believe the studies are a little more advance than what's in the public eye............... |
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geogen
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Posted: Aug 22, 2008 - 07:28 AM
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Veteran

Joined: Aug 11, 2008
Posts: 337
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Dwight, while I have suggested the similar assessment of AIM-120C/D being perhaps only an avg system by 2016 with the assumed advances today and soon to come around the world, it's really unpredicatable what sort of priority DoD/USAF will put on new F-35 a2a armaments by those early dates, imo.
If one looks at the current F-22 load-out protocol, if I'm not mistaken, the going protocol is to arm legacy a/c with the better (more expensive) a2a rounds, to leverage the total force... so extrapolate out to 2016 and perhaps the F-22/F-35 will have the 120D/9x and remaining legacy will get the hypothetical new-breed super AIMs?
I'm just more pessimistic as you can probably see, re: ongoing and future development costs, procurement costs (materials, schedules, labor, etc) and the full rate numbers procured, etc. But I truly hope sufficient funds will be available, after the R&D stuff, to actually arm these suckers with equivalent, cutting-edge weaponry. We'll just have to see what the future official protocol/philosophy will be on this topic? |
_________________ The Super-Viper has not yet begun to concede.
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dwightlooi
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Posted: Aug 22, 2008 - 07:58 AM
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Elite

Joined: Aug 02, 2006
Posts: 940
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geogen wrote:
Dwight, while I have suggested the similar assessment of AIM-120C/D being perhaps only an avg system by 2016 with the assumed advances today and soon to come around the world, it's really unpredicatable what sort of priority DoD/USAF will put on new F-35 a2a armaments by those early dates, imo.
If one looks at the current F-22 load-out protocol, if I'm not mistaken, the going protocol is to arm legacy a/c with the better (more expensive) a2a rounds, to leverage the total force... so extrapolate out to 2016 and perhaps the F-22/F-35 will have the 120D/9x and remaining legacy will get the hypothetical new-breed super AIMs?
I'm just more pessimistic as you can probably see, re: ongoing and future development costs, procurement costs (materials, schedules, labor, etc) and the full rate numbers procured, etc. But I truly hope sufficient funds will be available, after the R&D stuff, to actually arm these suckers with equivalent, cutting-edge weaponry. We'll just have to see what the future official protocol/philosophy will be on this topic?
Well, there is really only two possible ways go about supplanting the AMRAAM. Both approaches are getting planned for by more than power point slides and study groups.
(1) The first approach is to upgrade the AIM-120D with VFDR propulsion. The motor has already been built and tested by Aerojet under a 2004 AFRL contract. Actually 3 VFDR motors were built -- a 13.5", a 10" and a 7". The technology and probably a flyable motor is basically ready to go. AMRAAM guidance with the "D"series seeker and 2-way datalink is pretty much as good as it gets today. A VFDR motor will give it Meteor class kinematics.
(2) The second approach is an all new missile. Going to a clean sheet design allows for even more advanced guidance, the incorporation of an ultra light airframe and allows for packaging issues on the F-22 and F-35 to be easily addressed. Under the Joint Dual-Role Air Dormination Missile (JDRADM) program various technologies are being matured in anticipation of the development of a new generation missile that leap frogs the pack. These technologies include:-
a. Sensor Integrated Fusing -- using the seeker as a highly precise fuse.
b. Dual Band seeker -- concurrent Imaging IR and Active Radar seekers in one missile.
c. Broadband RF receiver -- broad band passive receiver to support A2G anti-radar missions.
d. Advanced Composite airframe -- lighter, stronger airframe improving fuel fraction.
e. Advanced Electronics packaging -- compressed electronics
f. Advanced Propulsion -- either VFDR or high performance rocket
g. Selective Adaptive Directed Energy warhead -- selective fragmentation patterns.
The JDRADM, or whatever, if developed may make any and all of the current arguments on how many missiles be plausible on which aircraft moot. Remember, 2 AMRAAMs even when staggers ala F-22 takes up 22.25" which clearances. The missile bodies only take up 14 inches. If packaging density is a goal, the next generation missile can easily be designed with folding fins which will allow up to 8 internal weapons to fit on the F-35 and 10 to fit on the belly bays on the F-22 (excluding the AIM-9 side bays).
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geogen
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Posted: Aug 22, 2008 - 09:21 AM
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Veteran

Joined: Aug 11, 2008
Posts: 337
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| Dang! I'd vote for: the 10 folding JDRADMs in a Raptor's belly bay. |
_________________ The Super-Viper has not yet begun to concede.
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F15F16F22F35
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Posted: Aug 23, 2008 - 12:17 AM
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Regular User

Joined: Aug 20, 2008
Posts: 31
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dwightlooi wrote:
checksixx wrote:
F15F16F22F35 wrote:
6 internal AMRAAMs on the F-35? COOL!!!  Are they working on this right now or is this after SDD?
No plans for 6 internal AIM-120's right now. No one here will believe it. The thread has spiraled out of control.
The F-35 Program Office said that:-
(1) The F-35 will enter service with the ability to carry 4 AAMs internally plus up to 10 additional missiles externally.
(2) The F-35 weapon bays have room for additional air-to-air missiles and studies have been conducted on advancing launcher technology to capitalize on the additional space to carry more than 4 AAMs.
(3) Currently, there are no US plans, schedules or funding for the implementation of multi-AAM launchers for the internal stations.
Anything else you may or may not have heard is bullshit.
In short, 6 AAMs is physically possible but is not being pursed by the USA right now because it is low on the priority list. Unless Israel, Australia, the UK or some other F-35 partners who may be using the F-35 as their primary high superiority fighter chooses to develop a twin ejector for the F-35 internal bays using a few million of their own currency, such a device will not be available until the high priority tasks have been retired.
The priority is to stay on the revised schedule and get the F-35 into low-rate-initial-production by 2009, full rate production (132+ aircrafts per year) and IOC by 2012. The aircraft has to enter service with the baseline capability to prosecute the vast majority of anticipated A2A and precision strike missions with the core subset of possible loadouts. Additional capabilities and loadout options can come later.
http://www.jsf.mil/downloads/documents/ ... 202007.pdf
The other thing to consider that the AIM-120C/D may no longer be the contemporary AAM of the US armed services in 2016. There should be a new missile or one actively being developed. So, a question one has to ask is whether it is a wise thing to bend over backwards to squeeze out a dual ejector at a time when schedules and funding can least afford it only to get it in service in time for it to be retired.
14 AAMs thats much more than any other fighter. Any so why do people say the F-35 is not a good air superiority fighter if it can carry 14 AAMs?
I can see why they don't need 6 internal AAMs if it can already carry 14. If some partner nations do go for the 6 internal AAM than no doubt the U.S. will go for it too but as of right now no one is. 14 is more than enough. |
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Obamanite
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Posted: Aug 23, 2008 - 12:31 AM
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Veteran

Joined: Aug 26, 2008
Posts: 262
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F15F16F22F35 wrote:
dwightlooi wrote:
checksixx wrote:
F15F16F22F35 wrote:
6 internal AMRAAMs on the F-35? COOL!!!  Are they working on this right now or is this after SDD?
No plans for 6 internal AIM-120's right now. No one here will believe it. The thread has spiraled out of control.
The F-35 Program Office said that:-
(1) The F-35 will enter service with the ability to carry 4 AAMs internally plus up to 10 additional missiles externally.
(2) The F-35 weapon bays have room for additional air-to-air missiles and studies have been conducted on advancing launcher technology to capitalize on the additional space to carry more than 4 AAMs.
(3) Currently, there are no US plans, schedules or funding for the implementation of multi-AAM launchers for the internal stations.
Anything else you may or may not have heard is bullshit.
In short, 6 AAMs is physically possible but is not being pursed by the USA right now because it is low on the priority list. Unless Israel, Australia, the UK or some other F-35 partners who may be using the F-35 as their primary high superiority fighter chooses to develop a twin ejector for the F-35 internal bays using a few million of their own currency, such a device will not be available until the high priority tasks have been retired.
The priority is to stay on the revised schedule and get the F-35 into low-rate-initial-production by 2009, full rate production (132+ aircrafts per year) and IOC by 2012. The aircraft has to enter service with the baseline capability to prosecute the vast majority of anticipated A2A and precision strike missions with the core subset of possible loadouts. Additional capabilities and loadout options can come later.
http://www.jsf.mil/downloads/documents/ ... 202007.pdf
The other thing to consider that the AIM-120C/D may no longer be the contemporary AAM of the US armed services in 2016. There should be a new missile or one actively being developed. So, a question one has to ask is whether it is a wise thing to bend over backwards to squeeze out a dual ejector at a time when schedules and funding can least afford it only to get it in service in time for it to be retired.
14 AAMs thats much more than any other fighter. Any so why do people say the F-35 is not a good air superiority fighter if it can carry 14 AAMs?
I can see why they don't need 6 internal AAMs if it can already carry 14. If some partner nations do go for the 6 internal AAM than no doubt the U.S. will go for it too but as of right now no one is. 14 is more than enough.
Two things: first, 14 AAMs is theoretical and I doubt that would ever be an operational load, as I can't imagine a mission that would require a single airplane to carry more than a dozen AAMs. Second, such a load would ruin the F-35's VLO characteristics and negate its entire raison d'etre. Certainly, the ability for it to carry 6 internal AAMs will come in very handy not just for foreign air forces but for the USAF as well if it can only get approximately 180 Raptors as currently budgeted. Until the USAF's battle for more Raptors is either decisively won or lost, do not expect the F-35 to be cleared to carry more than 4 internal AAMs, as the USAF does not want to do or say anything that may make it apparent that the F-35's AA capability is not that far behind that of the F-22's. |
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dwightlooi
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Posted: Aug 23, 2008 - 01:31 AM
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Elite

Joined: Aug 02, 2006
Posts: 940
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I think there is a big difference between AAMs and INTERNALLY CARRIED AAMs.
The F-35's biggest advantage over its adversaries is its Very Low Observables RCS. To retain that edge, it needs to fly clean against respectable opponents. 14 AAMs are carried as 4 internal missiles, plus two each on the inner four pylons and one each on the outer pylons. Doing so will dramatically increase the F-35's radar cross section which is smaller than that of a single AAM. Doing so also reduces performance and range by introducing pylon and weapon drags in the airstream.
Besides, when was the last time you saw an F-18 or whatever fighter take off on a combat mission with 10 missiles on the wings and two more under the belly (which is the theoretical maximum for the Hornet)? Nobody needs 14 -- possible or not. 4 is OK; it is the typical F-16 Intercept mission loadout. But 6 will be nice and 8 will be way ample. This pretty much applies to any fighter. |
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datafuser
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Posted: Aug 23, 2008 - 03:05 AM
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Newbie

Joined: Aug 12, 2007
Posts: 11
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dwightlooi wrote:
The F-35 Program Office said that:-
(1) The F-35 will enter service with the ability to carry 4 AAMs internally plus up to 10 additional missiles externally.
Can we see the original source of the F-35 Program Office's above statement please?
I'd like to see something other than the page 42 of http://www.jsf.mil/downloads/documents/ ... t%2006.pdf
I still haven't seen any hard evidence that AMRAAM ejectors for stations 4 and 8 are funded right now. |
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