Forum: F-35 Lightning II

Su27_pilot wrote:

english is my second language,so please excuse me if i write something wrong,i meant to say that he said how he cant beat Su30mkm with F35...you should consider new russian phasotron radars and new types of jammers... 1999 in Serbia was shot down F117A(stealth bomber) with 30 yrs old air defence system NEVA...as i said,F22 and 35 are not invisible for Russian S300PMU2 and S400...especially when these air defence systems have 400km range in distance and 34km in height...i didnt say that F35 is bad,only that it cant be winner against new Russian multy-role planes...and i ehard something about modernisation of MiG31,its standard capabilities are 250km shooting,now they made some new missiles with 350km range,and putted even stronger radar ...

Well, all of the JSF Partners would disagree along with many other countries waiting in the wings for the F-35. Funny, if the F-35 and F-22 could be so easily defeated by such advancements. Why is Russia and India spending Billions to develope the Stealthy PAK-FA???? Wink

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Su27_pilot wrote:

and it is proven that russian fighters have better manuvering capabilities...

... Very Happy

So do a Zero vs a Corsair or Thunderbolt during WWII. That said, I think the vast majority would take the latter two over the Japanese Fighter.

i didnt say it would be defeated easely,what i said was that russian plains are not bad as you think they are...we cant watch combat fight one-on-one because modern wars are not compiting between manufacturers but battle between two different or same ways of war strategics...and in modern war you must consider all branches of military...as I said,US are making planes to be superior against Russia and small number of them because only Russia has resurses to fight America,on the other hand,Russia has far better defence systems than America,and so,you must consider that if F35 will be used for ground attack missions it must pass by S300 and S400 systems,and that would be impossible...also,russian defence systems are integrated with airforce,and they bothj act as one element...

Corsair1963 wrote:

Su27_pilot wrote:

and it is proven that russian fighters have better manuvering capabilities...

... Very Happy

So do a Zero vs a Corsair or Thunderbolt during WWII. That said, I think the vast majority would take the latter two over the Japanese Fighter.

..can F22 do king cobra manuver?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGqgekztn5Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svlx4uKG ... re=related

Su47
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1wXsygQ ... re=related

MiG29OVT cobra
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAxx3T53TxM

Su37 performing kulbit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ALt3m3K ... re=related

elp wrote:

Corsair1963 wrote:

Su27_pilot wrote:

i will show you interview with australian former pilot that says he couldnt beat Su30MkM in F35...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPIF2JvVpek

That is a old story...........I would question does the ex-Air Marshall have access to the highly classifed F-35? Also, funny how the F-22 is unbeatable. Yet, the F-35 made by the same company and with nearly the same capabilities is so inferior???? Let's not forget most aircombat happens at BVR! The superiority of the F-22 is in its stealth which it largely shares with the F-35. If, the Lightning is a waste than so is the Raptor! Which, I doubt we will find any takers here! Wink

Remember that stealth by itself doesn't do everything. Even a slight turning manuver could make you RCS naked. Where the F-22 has a much higher altitude and the super cruise does count in that it lowers a missiles no escape zone. Stealth and airframe performance is better than steatlh and basic airframe performance. Add to that, an F-22 at it's top altitude and super-cruise can throw an AMRAAM up to 50% farther.

Personally, I doubt very much of those claims are true. Let alone that they could be backed up with any hard fact??? That said, if Stealth is so easy to overcome. I don't think the US and all of the JSF Partners would be spending Billions on the Program. Nor do I believe Russia is spending Billions more to counter it with a Stealth Fighter of its own!!!! Wink

i must remind that china also is making its on 5th gen. stealth fighter... Confused

Mentioning newer big SU manuevering ability misses a big point.

-Larger radar aperature-more power output
-Cross-eye and other modes of jamming
-Newer build in IRST that if it gets within a certain range something like an F-35 is going to be at risk
-A larger BVR missile load
-Fuel/speed
-improved plane to plane data linking.

Superior to an F-35? Hard to say yes to that and what is more important to think about is that aircraft loss rates should be close enough to be disturbing for a coalition.

Again, here the F-22 (which also has a large radar aperature and... growth room)...is dangerous enough even without stealth. Stealth IS important and a nose on F-35 is a threat. But naked, a F-22 has a better chance of dominating for the already mentioned reasons. Also that super cruise gives the F-22 more options on how and when it wants to fight.

With the UK dumping the incorporation of putting an A2A missile in the internal A2G station of the F-35. It should be safe to say that we won't see an F-35 with anything more than 2 A2A missiles internal by the end of SDD. Which, given all the other weapons they have to certify by the end of SDD, isn't a bad thing. It is after all the Joint STRIKE fighter, even if LM likes to now hawk it as some air domination machine.

That super-cruise of the F-22 also puts it a league ahead in survivability when having to deal with double-diget SAM threats. A threat that will be around for both the life of the F-22 and F-35. Here, F-22 can have a better known, no escape zone of the threat to stay out of. Important stuff.

If the F-22 isn't invincible, certainly in the higher threat regimes ( a rare but possible Chicom scenario with the above threats) an F-35 has some issues to deal with.

http://worldwidewarpigs.blogspot.com/20 ... laims.html

I think the F-35 will be a great jet.... if it can be made affordable.

Su27_pilot wrote:

i didnt say it would be defeated easely,what i said was that russian plains are not bad as you think they are...we cant watch combat fight one-on-one because modern wars are not compiting between manufacturers but battle between two different or same ways of war strategics...and in modern war you must consider all branches of military...as I said,US are making planes to be superior against Russia and small number of them because only Russia has resurses to fight America,on the other hand,Russia has far better defence systems than America,and so,you must consider that if F35 will be used for ground attack missions it must pass by S300 and S400 systems,and that would be impossible...also,russian defence systems are integrated with airforce,and they bothj act as one element...

SAM's don't have such a good record................Also, the F-35 would hardly attack a capable Air Defense Network alone! Wink

elp wrote:

Mentioning newer big SU manuevering ability misses a big point.

-Larger radar aperature-more power output
-Cross-eye and other modes of jamming
-Newer build in IRST that if it gets within a certain range something like an F-35 is going to be at risk
-A larger BVR missile load
-Fuel/speed
-improved plane to plane data linking.

Superior to an F-35? Hard to say yes to that and what is more important to think about is that aircraft loss rates should be close enough to be disturbing for a coalition.

Again, here the F-22 (which also has a large radar aperature and... growth room)...is dangerous enough even without stealth. Stealth IS important and a nose on F-35 is a threat. But naked, a F-22 has a better chance of dominating for the already mentioned reasons. Also that super cruise gives the F-22 more options on how and when it wants to fight.

With the UK dumping the incorporation of putting an A2A missile in the internal A2G station of the F-35. It should be safe to say that we won't see an F-35 with anything more than 2 A2A missiles internal by the end of SDD. Which, given all the other weapons they have to certify by the end of SDD, isn't a bad thing. It is after all the Joint STRIKE fighter, even if LM likes to now hawk it as some air domination machine.

That super-cruise of the F-22 also puts it a league ahead in survivability when having to deal with double-diget SAM threats. A threat that will be around for both the life of the F-22 and F-35. Here, F-22 can have a better known, no escape zone of the threat to stay out of. Important stuff.

If the F-22 isn't invincible, certainly in the higher threat regimes ( a rare but possible Chicom scenario with the above threats) an F-35 has some issues to deal with.

http://worldwidewarpigs.blogspot.com/20 ... laims.html

I think the F-35 will be a great jet.... if it can be made affordable.

I don't doubt that the F-22 is better than the F-35 in a purely Air Superior Role. Yet, the question is to what degree??? For that we will all have to wait on the real answers for some time. Sad

As for the UK not mounting another AAM's in the current A/G Weapons Station. Well, that was explain they believe the increase RCS of carrying it externally was negligible. That said, the UK requirement doesn't speak for the other F-35 operators. Personally, I believe the F-35 will at some point carry 6 AAM's internally! Twisted Evil

do you even know how S300PMU2 and S400 work?how many targets can they shoot?

Su27_pilot wrote:

do you even know how S300PMU2 and S400 work?how many targets can they shoot?

No, I don't...............Yet, if Iran was for example equipped with the S300PMU2 and S400 to protect a Nuclear Weapons Plant. Do you really believe in could stop a attack from the US and Western Europe??? Question

Last edited by elp on Mar 27, 2008 - 06:13 PM; edited 1 time in total

Hi Corsair, good to see you.

Personally I'd like to see F-35 stick to their knitting and just get a workable Block I jet. I would even prefer a workable Block I or II that had no frills for now and add stuff later on a more extended spiril ( a method that served the Super Hornet program well ).

Here 2 A2A missiles internal, the ability to carry 2 laser/JDAMs or 2 500lb class enhanced Paveways or Paveway IV(UK) and a few JDAMs and/or few Paveways external...of course the internal gun and gun pod.... and.... pay for everything else on weapons certification on an extended schedule.

Yeah I bet you could put a bunch of A2A solutions on the jet. I just wan the thing delivered at a low price and btw if I had the basic ability mentioned above, a lot of targets could still be killed. I don't even care if the APG-81 has all of it's combat modes certified right away on the jet. However depending on the lab work this might be a non-issue anyway but you get my point.

I would even go agressive on the test and as soon as the first USAF production example gets up in the air. Fix it up quicky and prove it can drop a couple JDAMs ASAP and fire the gun. Doing this ASAP even if it isn't an all functionality thing would be outstanding PR for the program. After all the old prototype STOVL years ago did a dramatic demo, got up and did a super sonic run and came back down. 1 or 2 PR events like I mentioned above would have a positive effect for everyone,.... and yeah I know it isn't in the plan, but a low risk dramtic, heavily scripted weapons (er...basic certification for a highly scripted and safe drop) would be good.

Corsair1963 wrote:

Su27_pilot wrote:

do you even know how S300PMU2 and S400 work?how many targets can they shoot?

No, I don't...............Yet, if Iran was for example equipped with the S300PMU2 and S400 to protect a Nuclear Weapons Plant. Do you really believe in could stop a attack from the US and Western Europe??? Question

Iran is not equiped with S300/400 systems,because russians are not selling it to anyone,yes,i beleive that russia could stop american attack...of course,convencional war,without nukes...

Su27_pilot wrote:

Corsair1963 wrote:

Su27_pilot wrote:

do you even know how S300PMU2 and S400 work?how many targets can they shoot?

No, I don't...............Yet, if Iran was for example equipped with the S300PMU2 and S400 to protect a Nuclear Weapons Plant. Do you really believe in could stop a attack from the US and Western Europe??? Question

Iran is not equiped with S300/400 systems,because russians are not selling it to anyone,yes,i beleive that russia could stop american attack...of course,convencional war,without nukes...

You might want to inform the Chicoms about all the S-300-like SAMs they have and are getting more of......

what is Chicom?

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

Six AMRAAMs carried internally in the F-35