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Forum Veteran Joined: Dec 15, 2006 Posts: 505

There was some talk of putting a laser in place of a gun on some of the later versions of the JSF. I was wandering if anyone knew how this program is going. Anyone have any links to new news on how the program is going? I was wandering if; like most programs is it late and overrunning it’s budget, ect…?

Quote:

Laser weapons take to the air
August 25, 2005 10:44 AM PDT

Researchers expect that airborne lasers will eventually be small enough to be mounted on smaller fighter jets. The Pentagon expects to have a 15-kilowatt prototype ready by the end of 2005, and a 150-kilowatt version ready by 2007, according to the New Scientist report.

Credit: Directed Energy Directorate, Air Force Research Laboratory

http://news.com.com/2300-1022_3-5843096-7.html

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Newbie Joined: Jul 30, 2006 Posts: 9 Status: Offline

Nah, I'd prefer photon torpedoes... Very Happy

Seriously though,is this thing for real?

from pop science magazine is a pictureI used to make this sig

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b334/ ... future.jpg

Elite 1K Joined: Jul 22, 2005 Posts: 1089 Status: Offline

Sagikor wrote:

Nah, I'd prefer photon torpedoes... Very Happy

Seriously though,is this thing for real?

It will be eventually. The idea (one of them anyway) is to put the beam generator and director in the area occupied byt the lift fan in the VTOL model and then use the power tap used to power the lift fan to power a generator instead to power a solidstate laser. You figure the amount of power they can tap is something like 27 MW and you can see that you could get some pretty serious power going there (not a 27MW beam obviously but definitly powerful enough to do the job).

This toy would be nice to see also on B2 an Raptor, I can't believe they develop a weapon like that and fit joust the low-end line !!
(this is also valid for F35's DAS)

Elite 1K Joined: Jul 22, 2005 Posts: 1089 Status: Offline

Neno wrote:

This toy would be nice to see also on B2 an Raptor, I can't believe they develop a weapon like that and fit joust the low-end line !!
(this is also valid for F35's DAS)

Power. The F-35's engine is already designed to provide an enormous power tap and to put the F135 on the F-22 would hamper it's performance.

The current power system doesn't have 15KW to spare, let alone 150KW.

edit: I'm referring to the IPP, not the F-135

Elite 1K Joined: Jul 22, 2005 Posts: 1089 Status: Offline

habu2 wrote:

The current power system doesn't have 15KW to spare, let alone 150KW.

edit: I'm referring to the IPP, not the F-135

I'm talking about something altogether different.

Elite 1K Joined: Aug 01, 2006 Posts: 1003 Status: Offline

I don't think a lase-to-kill weapon is practical for a fighter sized aircraft. Converting engine power to electric power then to light energy is not an efficient process. It is also doubtful that solid state lasers. It takes about 1~2 MW to defeat a mortar or rocket round. And that is with around ten seconds of lasing the non-maneuvering ballistic target. At least similar power will be needed to actually hard kill an AAM or SAM. A laser device of this power class will not fit the F-35's lift-fan accommodations and that is not counting the additional electric generation or storage provisions that must accompany any high energy laser weapon. This is unlikely to change in the future.

What is more likely is a much lower output laser device along the lines of a souped up IR countermeasure turret already found on today's transport aircraft and helos. Basically the idea is not to blow up the AAM. Rather, the laser will be strong enough to blind and ultimately fry an IR AAM/SAM's seeker. That is good enough to render the missile worthless. With passive stealth and/or electronic attack already providing a good measure of defence against radar guided missiles this will provide a comprehensive defense for the F-35 against all missile weapons. A device of this class will be no bigger than a typical optronics turret on an attack helo. It will not occupy a lot of space and certainly won't need the lift fan's volume or weight allowance.

Forum Veteran Joined: Dec 14, 2006 Posts: 505

habu2 wrote:

The current power system doesn't have 15KW to spare, let alone 150KW.

True, but it doesn’t necessarily apply. To shoot down a missile or an aircraft you don’t need to sustain a laser for a long period of time. It might be able to slowly charge up capacitor or batteries for a laser burst sufficient enough to disable a missile or aircraft.

I have a flash that draws something like 5000 amps, but I use wire that is rated 15 amps. The wire does not burn up because the amperage is only for about 7 millionths of a second. The flash is about 2000 volts. It plugs into house power 120v 15a and does not blow fuses. The power is converted and stored over time till it charges up, till it is ready.

Like the phazers in star treck, it will likely take several seconds or minutes to charge up, and then it will likely only be able to take 1-3 shoots before needing to recover. Not only will time be needed to charge the laser, but also since an F-35 is a small fighter, it will likely have a small laser, so it will likely need time to cool off the emitter and power circuit after a shot or so.

dwightlooi wrote:

I don't think a lase-to-kill weapon is practical for a fighter sized aircraft. Converting engine power to electric power then to light energy is not an efficient process. It is also doubtful that solid state lasers. It takes about 1~2 MW to defeat a mortar or rocket round. And that is with around ten seconds of lasing the non-maneuvering ballistic target. At least similar power will be needed to actually hard kill an AAM or SAM. A laser device of this power class will not fit the F-35's lift-fan accommodations and that is not counting the additional electric generation or storage provisions that must accompany any high energy laser weapon. This is unlikely to change in the future.

I don’t think this laser is intended to shoot down artillery rounds, that takes a lot more power and a broader beam, since to knock out many artillery rounds you have to fragment or vaporize the target.

With aircraft or missiles it is not necessary to disintegrate or vaporize the whole target, (directly/primarily). Normally just punching a small hole through it will disable it or and trigger a secondary explosion.

You can easily disable an aircraft or missile by punching a small hole through the electronics. To trigger secondary explosions all you have to do sometimes is to punch a laser hole though fuel or explosives, them boom.

Elite 2K Joined: Jan 14, 2004 Posts: 2815 Status: Offline

This reminds me of a story I told, quite awhile back in another thread. I'll quote myself, due to the length.

TC wrote:

A group Russian AF Fulcrum and Flanker drivers came to Tyndall to visit. We were doing a chute and kit pull on one of the Eagles, when one of the IPs came up, giving a dog and pony show to some of the Russians.

This bird had just come back from Red Flag, and was due for the chute and kit pull when it returned. It still had a travel pod, and one of the curious Russians pointed it out. This was the dialogue between one of the Russians and the IP.

"What is this is?"

"Uh...That's the Battery Pack!" (right away, I'm thinking WTF

)

"Battery Pack?"

"Yeah for the Laser Cannon!" (I'm trying hard to keep it togther at this point).

"Laser Cannon?...Ah! Laser Target Designator, yes?"

"No the Laser Cannon! You know, like Star Wars!" (I'm now biting my lip to keep from laughing.)

"NO!...Not even in Russia do we have such technology!"
(Back in Life Support, the IP later said, "I wanted to say 'Well that's what it is, you pinko Russkie b@$tard!'" but he didn't.)

Russian pilot then goes to a nearby Crew Dog...

"What is this is?"

"Uh...That's the Battery Pack!"

Russian pilot walks away very perplexed!

X-Wing Fighters are still a long way off. Laughing

Forum Veteran Joined: Dec 14, 2006 Posts: 505

Quote:

X-Wing Fighters are still a long way off. Laughing

I am not talking Sci-Fi, I am talking about the real thing, not some bumbling joking translation.

Lasers have already been used as rangefinders and guidance for decades. Lasers have been used to blind/jam IR seekers for a long time. We killed the first ATA missile with an airborne missile in the 70s or 80s. It is just a matter of time before it is practical to fit on a fighter.

I wouldn’t make too much fun of soviets either, I think they shot down a full size aircraft with a ground-based laser back in the 70s.

Quote:

The Airborne Laser Lab was a gas-dynamic laser mounted in a modified version of a KC-135 used for flight testing. Similar to the commercial Boeing 707, the slightly smaller KC-135 was designed to military specifications and operated at hight gross weights. The NKC-135A (S/N 55-3123) is one of 14 KC-135As permanently converted for special testing. It was extensively modified by the Air Force weapons Labratory at Kirtland AFB, New Mexico, and used in an 11-year experiment to prove a high-energy laser could be operated in an aircraft and employed against airborne targets. During the experiment, the Airborne Laser Lab destroyed five AIM-9 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles and a Navy BQM-34A target drone.

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsh ... asp?id=787

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/all.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/all.htm

http://av.rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9ibyKD6su ... ms/abl.htm

Ground based laser
http://www.defense-update.com/directory/THEL.htm

F-16.net Editor Joined: Sep 23, 2003 Posts: 2862

How about lasers that just blind incoming new gen E/O missiles? Kinda like the gear being put on some Fed-X jets.

Forum Veteran Joined: Dec 14, 2006 Posts: 505

MTHEL THEL Mobile / Tactical High Energy Laser
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LThD0FMvTFU

elp wrote:

How about lasers that just blind incoming new gen E/O missiles? Kinda like the gear being put on some Fed-X jets.

Isn’t that kinda I already said?

ATFS_Crash wrote:

Lasers have been used to blind/jam IR seekers for a long time.

It could very well be the first laser they put on the JSF is an IR jammer version, however I was under the impression it was suppose to be a (limited) “kill laser” for missiles and aircraft. I wouldn’t be surprised if it already has a jammer laser.

U.S. F-35 Fighter May Be Armed with Laser (2002)
Directed Energy Weapon Would Complement Precision Munitions

http://www.jinsa.org/articles/articles. ... 6,164,1664

Attack at the Speed of Light (2002)
http://www.afa.org/magazine/dec2002/1202attack.asp

Toward A New Laser Era (2006)
http://www.afa.org/magazine/June2006/0606laser.html

It sounds like there is no funding yet and nothing is cast in stone.

Forum Veteran Joined: Dec 14, 2006 Posts: 505

JHPSSL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9JZSjsgWm0
Possibly might be incorporated into a future version of the JSF (Joint Strike Fighter) F-35
Joint High Power Solid-State Laser (JHPSSL) Program Northrop Grumman

Designed to accelerate solid-state laser technology for military uses, the JHPSSL program is funded by the Army Space and Missile Defense Command, Huntsville, Ala; Office of the Secretary of Defense - Joint Technology Office, Albuquerque; Air Force Research Laboratory, Kirtland Air Force Base, N.M.; and the Office of Naval Research, Arlington, Va.

Under the current phase (Phase 3), the program's goal is for a laser system to reach 100 kW, setting the stage for a variety of force protection and strike missions such as shipboard defense against cruise missiles; wide-area, ground-based defense against rockets, artillery, and mortars; and precision strike missions for airborne platforms.

Northrop Grumman surpassed a critical milestone on the JHPSSL 2 program when it demonstrated a laser system with a total power of greater than 27 kW with a run time of 350 seconds.

Northrop Grumman's approach utilizes amplifier chains assembled with multiple high-power gain modules. The company's JHPSSL demonstrator used two chains to demonstrate the 27 kW level achieved during Phase 2. Avoiding the need for new physics or scaling, the company's 100 kW architecture uses eight chains, very similar to those used in its 27 kW device.

JHPSSL Phase 1 addressed risk reduction of the technologies necessary to obtain high power and beam quality simultaneously. Phase 2 took these technologies and scaled them to greater than 25 kW, and showed further scalability to 100 kW and beyond.

JHPSSL
http://www.st.northropgrumman.com/capab ... hpssl.html

Other possible versions
http://www.st.northropgrumman.com/capab ... asers.html

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