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We forget we are part of a Democracy! Vote for the candidate that supports purchasing more F-22's. Also, Write or E-Mail your local Congressman or Senator. In short be a part of the process and make things happen. Its really to bad that most people think they will have little effect on the process. Which, in my personal experience couldn't be farther from the true. Yet, you have to get involved............even just a letter can have a impact! SPREAD THE WORD Remember, they work for us!

I am afraid you are forgetting the budget part of this bargain. If the actual figures are 183 from the originary 750 there must be a reason.

In my opinion this stealth vogue is half a hoax. Dont take me wrong, i believe today it is a powerful advantage against foes who cant match or compete this tech. But just right now is too expensive and immature, and it is quite cheaper for a radar system to reach. US has pioneered this field and nowadays F-22 is the most advanced aircraft US tech and industry can produce, but when the budget hit the cap it should have turned in a prototype study just like Army did with the Comanche, when it passed both DEM/VAL and EMD phases, just to be canceled when 8 vehicles were already produced and 8 billions dollars were already been spent, and all the know-how passed on UAVs projecting.

Now USAF finds itself in a no-escape situation, a win-win for LM. It has no real substitute or alternative now, too much time and funds have been lost in F-22/F-35 projects, and USAF leaders are already lobbying US Senate for other 20 raptors and for hijacking JCA project from the army, as well as blocking Gen. Petraeus new doctrinal paper on COIN because they dont want to play any part with it (just see this quote from gen. Keys on 01/29/07 on acviation week:

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"Essential electronic surveillance systems may be too sensitive--overwhelmed by the density of U.S. and allied emitters--to be useful in the electronically polluted environment of Baghdad, the main focus of the new U.S. military surge.

"If war breaks out, I'm sending the F-22," Keys said last week. But not for operations in Iraq or Afghanistan. "I didn't buy the F-22 for Iraq. We're looking for what can sop up intelligence, reconnaissance and surveillance [ISR] in Iraq and Afghanistan. Is the investment [of sending the F-22] worth it? Is it a good idea or just an attractive idea? Will it complicate the air component commander's problems for no gain?" .

Uh? excuse me? Arent they wars? Are F-22 so weak and delicate, or is it just a lousy excuse? Werent they the ultimate tool for discovering IEDs thanks to their super-duper-elecronics?

I am afraid USAF leaders have they own private agenda, which is somehow closer to LM's and Boeing's than US taxpayers nor Army and USMC grunts.

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Elite 1K Joined: Jul 20, 2005 Posts: 1035 Status: Offline

Wow...you must believe in aliens too huh? As is stands right now, the Raptor pilots are training for CAS missions like those flown every day over the AOR.

checksixx wrote:

Wow...you must believe in aliens too huh? As is stands right now, the Raptor pilots are training for CAS missions like those flown every day over the AOR.

all my -few- sources indicate that USAF has no interest in pursuing COIN nor CAS nor BAI. These source include one of the best -if not THE best- Italian defence journalist, Ezio Bonsignore, as well as Christian Lowe at Defencetech.com and al. The fact they are actually training for CAS means not much in comparison to what USAF leaders are actually doing.

As far as aliens are concerned, I do believe in aliens too, but i think they influence my everyday life less than billion dollar projects like raptor and JSF.

Elite 1K Joined: Jul 20, 2005 Posts: 1035 Status: Offline

Maffa wrote:

all my -few- sources indicate that USAF has no interest in pursuing COIN nor CAS nor BAI. These source include one of the best -if not THE best- Italian defence journalist, Ezio Bonsignore, as well as Christian Lowe at Defencetech.com and al. The fact they are actually training for CAS means not much in comparison to what USAF leaders are actually doing.

As far as aliens are concerned, I do believe in aliens too, but i think they influence my everyday life less than billion dollar projects like raptor and JSF.

If your talking about the Raptor, then your wrong as the Air Force is now prepping those pilots to fly that type of profile...even if its not likely to happen. If your talking about the Air Force as a whole, your also wrong as those are the only types of missions being flown in the AOR. My refrences are the USAF and Lockheed Martin...notice that neither of those are foriegn journalists...I'm also curious about how our defense projects affect you in Italy? Are you American?

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I'm also curious about how our defense projects affect you in Italy? Are you American?

I am Italian, and as such i live in a NATO country that hosts a number of USAF & NATO a/c's that -among other things- allows my country to spend less on military sector, letting me and my countrymen to enjoy pretty things like decent public welfare. Talking about F-22, if its number is capped to 180, its unlikely that any will be assigned to USAFE, major threats coming from PACAF area.

As far as JSF is concerned, my country is involved in the project expenses with a so-and-so relevant 12%, which makes it the third contributor to the project, the first of no-stealth proud Lightning owners. As it is involved in EFA project too, and since defense budgets are way tighter that US, the result is that each project is stepping on the other's feet. It involves a number of other factors -like (poor and risky) industrial compensation, know-how (not) acquired - that are major national concerns.

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even if its not likely to happen

so whats the point? just keeping skills ready and prepped?

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If your talking about the Air Force as a whole, your also wrong as those are the only types of missions being flown in the AOR.

well, A-10 are still in service. despite USAF's contempt on the machine. The problem will be when they are retired, since no F-22 nor F-35 will cover its area. Let's face it, no 5000 ft. high plane can seriously perform any CAS.

Maffa wrote:

Well, A-10 are still in service. despite USAF's contempt on the machine. The problem will be when they are retired, since no F-22 nor F-35 will cover its area. Let's face it, no 5000 ft. high plane can seriously perform any CAS.

Not so my friend, we use something called a camera, AKA Targeting pod, to see anything we want on the ground.
The A-10 is still in service because 1. 30MM cannon 2. load carrying capabilities 3. loiter time on target 4. armor plating for defense. 5. no F-35 is in service yet 6. F-16's and FA-18's are being used for CAS also.
A-10 is well respected in the AF, just not in the press which reports old ideas from the fast jet guys early in the program.

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My refrences are the USAF and Lockheed Martin...notice that neither of those are foriegn journalists...

Sorry jumped this point.
Some reference:
- <a href="http://tinyurl.com/2hu4sw" target="_blank">aviation weekly</a>, in the first part underlining the difficulties between Army (and Gen Petraeus) with USAF;

A quote:

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Even the new counterinsurgency manual authored in part by Gen. David H. Petraeus, specifically notes that the excessive use of airpower in counterinsurgency conflict can lead to disaster.

In response, the Air Force has gone on the defensive. In September 2006, Maj. Gen. Charles Dunlap Jr. published a long article in Armed Forces Journal denouncing "boots on the ground zealots" and insisting that airpower can solve the most important problems associated with counterinsurgency. The Air Force also recently published its own counterinsurgency manual elaborating on these claims. A recent op-ed by Maj. Gen. Dunlap called on the United States to "think creatively" about "airpower and counterinsurgency" and proposed striking Iranian oil facilities.

- <a href="http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/article.aspx?id=1156" target="_blank">World politics review</a> on how the turbo-propped Iraqi reborn airforce will "help" (LOL) USAF in COIN

- <a href="http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/usaf/afdd2-3.pdf" target="_blank">USAF COIN doctrine</a> where not a single word is spent to describe how 5000 ft. jets and 40+ft. bombers can help with COIN ops, nor indicates new equipment for doing it; just an advice: "Think creatively!" (yes, i read it)

some more to come when my internet connection recovers.

Elite 1K Joined: Jul 20, 2005 Posts: 1035 Status: Offline

Maffa wrote:

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I'm also curious about how our defense projects affect you in Italy? Are you American?

I am Italian, and as such i live in a NATO country that hosts a number of USAF & NATO a/c's that -among other things- allows my country to spend less on military sector, letting me and my countrymen to enjoy pretty things like decent public welfare. Talking about F-22, if its number is capped to 180, its unlikely that any will be assigned to USAFE, major threats coming from PACAF area.

So specifically regarding the F-22...which is being discussed in this thread...you are in fact unaffected by it...which is my point

As far as JSF is concerned, my country is involved in the project expenses with a so-and-so relevant 12%, which makes it the third contributor to the project, the first of no-stealth proud Lightning owners. As it is involved in EFA project too, and since defense budgets are way tighter that US, the result is that each project is stepping on the other's feet. It involves a number of other factors -like (poor and risky) industrial compensation, know-how (not) acquired - that are major national concerns.

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even if its not likely to happen

so whats the point? just keeping skills ready and prepped?

Wow...You see, we train so that if we need to do it, we know how to do it...the right way. Your military probably works the same way

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If your talking about the Air Force as a whole, your also wrong as those are the only types of missions being flown in the AOR.

well, A-10 are still in service. despite USAF's contempt on the machine. The problem will be when they are retired, since no F-22 nor F-35 will cover its area. Let's face it, no 5000 ft. high plane can seriously perform any CAS.

There is no contempt in the USAF about the A-10. In fact were in the process of upgrading them all to the A-10C configuration. In relation to your comments, I'm guessing you have no idea of what aircraft we have in theater performing CAS. Mostly were using B-1B's, F-16's and F-15E's along with some A-10's. The F-22 and F-35 will most certainly be able to perform CAS duties and the F-22 could perform them right now if we needed it to.

Maffa wrote:

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I'm also curious about how our defense projects affect you in Italy? Are you American?

I am Italian, and as such i live in a NATO country that hosts a number of USAF & NATO a/c's that -among other things- allows my country to spend less on military sector, letting me and my countrymen to enjoy pretty things like decent public welfare. Talking about F-22, if its number is capped to 180, its unlikely that any will be assigned to USAFE, major threats coming from PACAF area.

So specifically regarding the F-22...which is being discussed in this thread...you are in fact unaffected by it...which is my point

Hi Check.. I love readin these threads and I know insults are really considered not proper etiquette, but this Maffa guy is beyond the realm of deserving that respect. In a nutshell, what he is saying is that since the F22 cost so much, we may not station it in HIS NATO country and his puny nothing of a country may have to spend more to defend their weak as**es and his nice *public welfare* may be jeapordized. Personally I could care less about his *public welfare* or what goes on in Italy period.

Nor do I think the F22 should be used in CAS just for the sake of it. We have so many more assests available for this that only a fool would use this a/c for that at this time. What exactly would be the point?? Do we use the B2, B52, B1B, F117 for CAS just because we have them in order to justify their existence? Not harldy!!

Someone also needs to tell that mental migit that YES we train our guys to be ready JUST in case regardless of the current threat!! What kind of complete idiot does not know that???

Plain and simple, this clown wishes the US to spend less on developing things we think we need so we can spend more protecting his tiny no name country allowing him to live the good life at the expense of US taxpayers. How bout we pull out of Italy and let them defend themselves as admirably as they did back in WWII.

Again sorry for the personal attack but the reality is, that Maffa guy is doing exactly that to the US but being more *politicaly correct* in doing so. Just tell him he can keep his 10 a/c and 3 tanks ok. The USA does NOT need any of it to stay the worlds mightiest nation!! Yea you can tell I am NOT a fan of Eurpoe, and especially one with a GDP the size of Montana trying to tell the US how to spend it's money on OUR national defence!!!!

Beazzz

Last edited by Maffa on Oct 31, 2007 - 10:04 PM; edited 1 time in total

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Not so my friend, we use something called a camera, AKA Targeting pod, to see anything we want on the ground.
The A-10 is still in service because 1. 30MM cannon 2. load carrying capabilities 3. loiter time on target 4. armor plating for defense. 5. no F-35 is in service yet 6. F-16's and FA-18's are being used for CAS also.

A camera. I see.
So, trying hard not to be sarcastic, can you show me the prowess we made from a 9 digit dollar aircraft using a 3-4 digit dollar ordinance (GAU bullets) on a three digit dollar insurgent truck to a 12 digit dollar aircraft using a 6 digit dollar ordinance to do the same job? If i were bin Laden Id rejoyce knowing US would commit more and more money on doing the same job it used to and cheaper, since there was no need to.

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So specifically regarding the F-22...which is being discussed in this thread...you are in fact unaffected by it...which is my point

English is not my first language, so i will try to word it differently. Italy and Europe air security depends on USAF aircrafts. It has for 50 years and nothing seems will change from now on. So, YES, it affects me. Got it?

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In relation to your comments, I'm guessing you have no idea of what aircraft we have in theater performing CAS. Mostly were using B-1B's, F-16's and F-15E's along with some A-10's

please stop having this attitude. I do know what aircrafts are in the area, I read some reports USAF made and read what Gen. Petraeus staff think about it. All this all-high-tech politicy is damn wrong when dealing with COIN. Whats the point of using a Raptor for CAS? Or as an anti-IED tool? This is a fairytale we are being told to justify the fact we (as USA and NATO and Western world) will have 180 aircrafts pretending they will do the job of 750, and 1750 to do the job of 3000+. If Raptors were good to cope with COIN scenarios, or just F-16's were enough, US gov would have given some old ANG vipers to Iraqi airforce for free, instead of <a href="http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/iraq-issues-rfp-for-coin-aircraft-03281/" targ4et="_blank">having them ask for turbopropped, slow aircraft</a>. USAF did nothing to cope with COIN, since it is obsessed by this exotic technology rush. COIN targets are trucks, cars, cross-bikes, people running, in urban areas or rocky deserts: what hope can have a high patrolling F-22 to pan around and see what it is happening around, then pin the particular truck among the others, and then fire a hundreds thousand dollar ljdam to blow it up, risking civil casualties in the while? How big is the opportunity window it operates in before the chance goes off? And this applies on F-16s, F-18s and in a minor grade on A-10s. <a href="http://www.ndu.edu/inss/Press/jfq_pages/editions/i45/19.pdf" target="_blank">Someone</a> tried to propose something specific for this situation: <i>this</i> is an answer, maybe a wrong one, but it is on topic. But please dont come to me and say F-22 is a valid (reliable, convenient, likely, desiderable) COIN tool, or that F-35 has been purposedly build for this role. They both are likely to <a href="http://www.cdi.org/program/document.cfm?DocumentID=4082&StartRow=1&ListRows=10&appendURL=&Orderby=D.DateLastUpdated&ProgramID=37&from_page=index.cfm" target="_blank">bankrupt</a> <a href="http://206.204.189.217/AFA/Features/modernization/box092107warning.htm" target="_blank">USAF</a>, and/or force US government to take drastic measures, and whoever designed them didnt mean to bust any 80's third hand russian made truck.

Beazz, I do not agree with Maffa's view, since I believe too his views on the subject are too simplistic. And he claims lots of other inaccuracies which is not the point of the thread to point out.

But I do not agree with your attitude too. Relax, take a deep breath and reconsider the strategy of the Cold War, the reasons your guys are over here and listen to people that have been here and their opinion and of our opinion on your country. Don't spoil our generally good opinion with statements that not only are as ignorant and inaccurate as Maffa's ones, and try to think out of any "Iraq or anything" box and you'll see a merrier world. Fun and sarcasm is one thing, but you definitely sound like a teenager just wanting a fight in your last post...Just something that doesn't contribute anything to the thread or to the discussion other than provoke a fight.

seat dreamer, i would like you to believe me when i say i didnt come to convince anyone, but to be convinced i am wrong. but still cant see any counter-argument on what i say. I am sorry you call me ignorant, but so i am, as a matter of fact: i am no LM employee nor airman nor i am involved in any other way to military aviation but what i can read on my own, so i am pleased to read something from the most learned and informed, and from my lowly position I care to quote where i get my data, should anyone care to click on the link and say "This author is rubbish". This still has to happen, though.

As for the topic, please read the first quoted lines from Sprey words: you will discover that any thread, whatever the topic, is hijacked by F-22/F-35 enthusiasts (not to talk about anti/EFA ones) who cant say anything but how great these planes are/will be, the same way car tuners emphatize their own pimped cars (with the difference they actually dont owe anything). Im not referring to no one in particular, just sense the trend. How can someone be seriously heated by a F-22 vs Rafale thread is a true mistery to me.

As for this Beazz guy, I just reported the post to moderators.

But since you have an opinion on Sprey words -which is actually the topic of this thread- i beg you, "complicate" my view.
Im not sarcastic. It is just that wherever i turn i find some alarmistic news about Raptors and Lightnings, so I am here -as well as in other places around the net- to find other news, to confirmate or negate what i learn. Please, if you can, fill me in.

seat_dreamer wrote:

Beazz, I do not agree with Maffa's view, since I believe too his views on the subject are too simplistic. And he claims lots of other inaccuracies which is not the point of the thread to point out.

But I do not agree with your attitude too. Relax, take a deep breath and reconsider the strategy of the Cold War, the reasons your guys are over here and listen to people that have been here and their opinion and of our opinion on your country. Don't spoil our generally good opinion with statements that not only are as ignorant and inaccurate as Maffa's ones, and try to think out of any "Iraq or anything" box and you'll see a merrier world. Fun and sarcasm is one thing, but you definitely sound like a teenager just wanting a fight in your last post...Just something that doesn't contribute anything to the thread or to the discussion other than provoke a fight.

Seat.. I am NO teen.. I am a 49 year old retired air traffic controller and I apoligized for what I had to say in advance. That being said, I take none of it back.

I read the posts from ppl such as Check, tool, thumpr and a sum others and they honestly seem to have a lot of knowledge on many things. But some guy like Maffa clearly has no RIGHT to tell the USA how to best spend its defence dollars so as best to keep his *wellfare* programs going and to imply we should spend it otherwise so his *welfare* sysyems can keep running is an outright insult to me, the American taxpayer!!

Also I simply do NOT agree with the US haveing all these bases in Europe. Why we have bases in all these countrys and then PAY these countrys for the right to be there and die for them if need be is personally an insult to me. Yea I know the theory behind it being if war breaks out we are already there and on an on. But I simply do not see WHY America has to be the one to defend Europe every time war breaks out is all.

Soory again if I offend some on here but what Europe thinks is really NOT my concern. Where my sons may go and die IS and the dollars we spend to protect all Americans is MY concern. The F22 saves AMERICAN lives better then any other a/c available known to mankind, and thats the bottom line in my book.

And please don't patronize me ok.

Beazzz ( OUT )

Last edited by Maffa on Nov 01, 2007 - 12:08 AM; edited 1 time in total

beazz that was a sarcastic answer to a very stupid, stupid, stupid (and vile) question, made to cut me out of the discussion as it is "US only" concern/topic/thread. Since you have your own ideas on bases outside US mainland you can open your own thread and talk about it. But even if you apologized in advance this doesn't give you the right of insult my country (nor my continent).

I wont go down your path because i have no interest to start a fight with no one, since -free not to believe- i came here to learn and expose someone else's ideas, being these people much more informed than me -and they are (surprise!) Americans, not some tunnel hidden taliban. These ideas sounded reasonable to me, and made them mine.

All i saw until now is people that dare to treat someone like Sprey like an idiot, and stupid answers to legitimate questions.

And your rude rant.

Turn your arrogance down, and please dont be so dumb to believe the choice of USAF air superiority fighter (or anything like that) involves USA only, militarily or economically. Whatever the choice, and told in a simple way, it will affect the whole world, first their closest allies and enemies, in a way and another. My theory is F-22 and F-35 will maim projectability, deployability, control and deterrence US gained since 1945, over Europe, Pacific and Middle East, because they are and will be economically unbearable projects, thus limiting their own numbers as well as the feasibility of other projects. And it will cost more lives (the grunts on the ground) than it saves (the pilot's own). This has also to do with my own welfare, in a not so indirect way, but it has much more to do with US global power.

Then think about it like you want, but do not abuse me or my country anymore.

Maffa wrote:

beazz that was a sarcastic answer to a very stupid, stupid, stupid question. Since you have your own ideas on bases outside US mainland you can open your own thread and talk about it. But even if you apologized in advance this doesn't give you the right of insult my country (nor my continent).

I wont go down your path because i have no interest to start a fight with no one, since -free not to believe- i came here to learn and expose someone else's ideas, being these people much more informed than me -and they are (surprise!) Americans, not some tunnel hidden taliban. These ideas sounded reasonable to me, and made them mine.

All i saw until now is people that dare to treat someone like Sprey like an idiot, and stupid answers to legitimate questions.

And your rude rant.

Turn your arrogance down, and please dont be so dumb to believe the choice of USAF air superiority fighter (or anything like that) involves USA only, militarily or economically. Whatever the choice, and told in a simple way, it will affect the whole world, first their closest allies and enemies, in a way and another. My theory is F-22 and F-35 will maim projectability, deployability, control and deterrence US gained since 1945, over Europe, Pacific and Middle East, because they are and will be economically unbearable projects, thus limiting their own numbers and the feasibility of other projects. And it costs more lives (the grunts on the ground) than it saves (the pilot's own). This has also to do with my own welfare, in a not so indirect way, but it has much more to do with US global power.

Then think about it like you want, but do not abuse me or my country anymore.

Maffa,
I have NO prob with how you feel about the F22 or any other piece of US militayr hardware. There are many opinions on that on this site and I love reading them. My entire comment stimmed from your implication that MY country should for all practiacal purpose base it's spending on what keeps YOUR safety, economy and welfare systems in place and that is an insult to me and my family.

The United States of America will be quiet capable of keeping both the F22 & F35 going if our congress would get their noses out of it. And I do NOT agree that they will cost lives on the ground. These a/c will take out many other a/c and ground assets that would otherwise threaten our troops on the ground and that's my humble opinion. But at any rate, what we buy or don't buy should in NO way be determined by how much Italy or any other country likes it. Here's a news flash, Americas interests comes first, THEN the interests of any other nation or continent ok. I doubt very seriously Italy makes it military purchases based on how it will effect American welfare systems??

I have no intention of commenting on this any further but take yur *don't* do this and that somehwere else besides me ok. With few exceptions I have no use for Europe, and Italy is NOT one of those exceptions.

Have a nice day and enjoy yur welfare system!!

Beazz

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