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It's so nice to know that nobody thinks anymore. Anybody remember how in the early sixties the F-4 Sparrow missile combo was suppose to have a 77% kill rate.
Yet during Vietnam it's rate was actually 8%.
It's so nice to know that nobody thinks anymore.

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Elite 1K Joined: May 26, 2005 Posts: 1152

Did you happen to notice that the F-22 comes equipped with a 20mm cannon? I think people are thinking just fine.

danhutmacher wrote:

Anybody remember how in the early sixties the F-4 Sparrow missile combo was suppose to have a 77% kill rate.

Let us keep things in perspective, the F-4 / Sparrow combination was to have this kill percentage against enemy bombers of which it was designed to kill, not against highly maneuverable targets like fighters of which it faced almost exclusively.

danhutmacher wrote:

during Vietnam it's rate was actually 8%.

The Ault Report revealed that 65% of air to air missiles fired in the Viet Nam War before the 1968 bombing halt were fired with either the launch aircraft or the target being outside the parameters of the missiles. This is why during the bombing halt the USN instituted Top Gun, to train the pilots how to properly use the missiles. About one-third of the Sparrow Missile failures were due to reliability problems.
A quick check through the ACIG's records on confirmed kills yields the Iranian AF has 'a' confirmed kill in which the Sparrow Missile was used against an Iraqi T-22B Binder and unconfirmed kills against a KC-130H and a P-3C. All the other kills by Sparrow Missiles were against targets it was not designed to kill but, with difficulty the missile was adapted to try and kill. Most of the Sparrow's service life, as badly as its kill percentage was, it was better than its competitors. It was stated of the art of radar air to air missiles.

Adrian

Enthusiast Joined: Mar 30, 2005 Posts: 94 Status: Offline

Spey was the man who said that the F-15 was too big and heavy.

The F-15 became the world's most successful jet fighter in terms of kill ratio (and in most every other sense).

Personally, I have never bought into the whole Fighter Mafia thing as being anything other than a couple of guys with over inflated egos.

As for the article, Spey was not 'the designer' of the F-16 or the A-10, and the A-10 is not a fighter.

Enthusiast Joined: Mar 30, 2005 Posts: 94 Status: Offline

danhutmacher wrote:

It's so nice to know that nobody thinks anymore. Anybody remember how in the early sixties the F-4 Sparrow missile combo was suppose to have a 77% kill rate.
Yet during Vietnam it's rate was actually 8%.
It's so nice to know that nobody thinks anymore.

You know what the actual kill ratio of AIM-120 shots inside Ropt is?

You are comparing apples and oranges and failing to even attempt to draw a distinction between the two.

avon1944 wrote:

danhutmacher wrote:

Anybody remember how in the early sixties the F-4 Sparrow missile combo was suppose to have a 77% kill rate.

Let us keep things in perspective, the F-4 / Sparrow combination was to have this kill percentage against enemy bombers of which it was designed to kill, not against highly maneuverable targets like fighters of which it faced almost exclusively.

danhutmacher wrote:

during Vietnam it's rate was actually 8%.

The Ault Report revealed that 65% of air to air missiles fired in the Viet Nam War before the 1968 bombing halt were fired with either the launch aircraft or the target being outside the parameters of the missiles. This is why during the bombing halt the USN instituted Top Gun, to train the pilots how to properly use the missiles. About one-third of the Sparrow Missile failures were due to reliability problems.
A quick check through the ACIG's records on confirmed kills yields the Iranian AF has 'a' confirmed kill in which the Sparrow Missile was used against an Iraqi T-22B Binder and unconfirmed kills against a KC-130H and a P-3C. All the other kills by Sparrow Missiles were against targets it was not designed to kill but, with difficulty the missile was adapted to try and kill. Most of the Sparrow's service life, as badly as its kill percentage was, it was better than its competitors. It was stated of the art of radar air to air missiles.

Adrian

Also, let's not group early Sparrows of the Vietnam era with the later models. Wink

So far fifteen Aim-120s have been fired in combat for six hits.
The main thing that I would like to point out is that before Vietnam everybody thought the sparrow was such a great missile. And it was assumed that if it had a high PK against bombers then it would be just as high against fighters.
The Ault report actually had 242 recommendations. Top Gun is just the most famous.
The missile that is most comparable to the Aim-120 is the Aim-54 Phoenix. Before the Navy retired it three were fired for no hits. I don't know if the Iranians had better luck with it or not.
As I sure everybody knows all missiles have a performance envelope. The biggest reason that most missile were fired out of that envelope in Vietnam was because the pilots DIDN'T know the envelope. In some case the minimum and maximum ranges were very close.

Enthusiast Joined: Mar 30, 2005 Posts: 94 Status: Offline

danhutmacher wrote:

So far fifteen Aim-120s have been fired in combat for six hits.

Right, and how many inside the envelope? The unclassified actual PK based on real life shots fired within the envelope for the AIM-120 is 'greater than 80 per cent'. Nothing even remotely like the AIM-7 in Vietnam as you were trying to suggest earlier.

danhutmacher wrote:

The main thing that I would like to point out is that before Vietnam everybody thought the sparrow was such a great missile. And it was assumed that if it had a high PK against bombers then it would be just as high against fighters.

And your point is what? You're using an example that is 40 years old and dramatically over-simplifying things.

If you want to make a point, use a more recent example.

danhutmacher wrote:

The missile that is most comparable to the Aim-120 is the Aim-54 Phoenix.

Why would you even try to compare the two? Apples/Oranges. What is the point?

danhutmacher wrote:

As I sure everybody knows all missiles have a performance envelope. The biggest reason that most missile were fired out of that envelope in Vietnam was because the pilots DIDN'T know the envelope. In some case the minimum and maximum ranges were very close.

Again, your point is what? How does knowing what the WEZ, NEZ or DLZ got to do with the effectiveness or potential of the F-22?

I am very confused about what point you are trying to make...

I'm going to go with Steve on that one. The first case is firing a "first-generation" AIM-120 from 30 miles, with a flying barn door like the F-15, just to keep the other guy busy and you and the folks you protect safe. It is by no means comparable to an F-22 which can get to 10nm unseen and pop an -5C model inside the NEZ, from every probable position which is favorable to him. The first case is a missile doing a free fall while trying to follow the aircraft. The second one, it's a missile with its motor still burning, which can turn at least 4-5x tighter than what the fighter can do. Totally different cases, totally different outcomes.

This is (IMO) part of why the F-22 is so much better than any of the current platforms. And of course, this comes from someone who has only a bit of knowledge. You can already start imagining what tactics schools in USAF will have devised to kill the "bad" guy.

Elite 3K Joined: May 10, 2004 Posts: 3098 Status: Offline

Let's not forget that many of the problems with the missiles in Vietnam were traced to mishandling on the ground and the ship in the case of the Navy. The missiles were being handled in a much rougher manner than what was expected by the manufacturer which led to their failures. We've learned from that one and this shouldn't be a problem now, but it presents a problem with regards to comparing effectiveness then vs. now. For example, did a particular launch back then fail due to being conducted outside of the engagement envelope or was the failure due to rough handling? Just something to think about Wink

...

The point that I'm trying to make is that when it comes to air combat the leaders of the air force were wrong about how air combat would go.
I just hope that they finally get it right.

Newbie Joined: Oct 04, 2007 Posts: 1 Status: Offline

[quote="danhutmacher"]So far fifteen Aim-120s have been fired in combat for six hits.

How exactly do you get that figure? Off the top of my head, 6 Mig-29s were shot down in Allied Force with the Aim-120 (one by a Dutch F-16, one by a USAF F-16 and 4 by 48FW F-15 (1 by Capt Shower, 1 by Col Rodriguez and 2 by Capt Hwang), 2 Iraqi Migs were downed after Desert Storm (one by Col North in a F-16) and possibly one or more of Serb Oratos were downed by 31 TFW F-16s were downed with Aim-120s- thus a MINIMUM of 8 kills. If you can't even get that number right, I doubt you are right about the 15 Aim-120 shots.

As far as I can recall only the Serb Mig-29 kill by Capt Shower of the 48FW indicatd Aim-120 failure (3 fired, one kil). In the case of Hwang and his wing man Murray, I am not sure if Murray's Aim-120 missed or was beaten to the target by Hwang's second Aim-120. The point is the Aim-120 is no Aim-7.

Elite 1K Joined: Jul 20, 2005 Posts: 1035 Status: Offline

"On 28 February 1994, USAF F-16s then shot down four Bosnian combat aircraft during the OPERATION DENY FLIGHT effort over Bosnia. Three were shot down by USAF Captain Robert "Wilbur" Wright, with one destroyed by an AMRAAM and two by Sidewinders."

checksixx wrote:

"On 28 February 1994, USAF F-16s then shot down four Bosnian combat aircraft during the OPERATION DENY FLIGHT effort over Bosnia. Three were shot down by USAF Captain Robert "Wilbur" Wright, with one destroyed by an AMRAAM and two by Sidewinders."

It seems to be some debate over the three aircraft Capt. Wright shot down, as to whether the aircraft he shot down were Galebs or J-21's. Whether the missiles used were Slammers only or an AMRAAM and "-9X" combination.

Adrian

avon1944 wrote:

checksixx wrote:

"On 28 February 1994, USAF F-16s then shot down four Bosnian combat aircraft during the OPERATION DENY FLIGHT effort over Bosnia. Three were shot down by USAF Captain Robert "Wilbur" Wright, with one destroyed by an AMRAAM and two by Sidewinders."

It seems to be some debate over the three aircraft Capt. Wright shot down, as to whether the aircraft he shot down were Galebs or J-21's. Whether the missiles used were Slammers only or an AMRAAM and "-9X" combination.

Adrian

Adrian, more like an AMRAAM-9M combination Very Happy

; the X had IOC some 9 year from that incident...

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