F-16 Reference
5th Gen Fighters
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J.J.
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Posted: Aug 11, 2007 - 11:09 PM
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Elite 2K

Joined: Oct 20, 2005
Posts: 2103
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That is music to my ears:
AFPN wrote:
Leaders consider returning maintainers to flying squadrons
by Staff Sgt. J.G. Buzanowski
Secretary of the Air Force Public Affairs
8/10/2007 - WASHINGTON (AFPN) -- Air Force leaders are considering realigning aircraft maintenance units directly into flying squadrons.
"It's important for Air Force units to be structured by mission and not by function," said Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. T. Michael Moseley.
"Aircraft maintenance is an important element of a flying squadron commander's mission, so crew chiefs and other aircraft maintainers should fall in that chain of command," the general said. "The partnership between crew chief and aircrew goes back to our roots and is part of our heritage. We'll figure out if this is the best thing for Airmen, but it won't happen before we've received all the feedback we need to make it work. This isn't just change for change sake; we want to make sure this is done right, not necessarily as quickly as possible.
"One of our main priorities is to properly organize, train and equip our Airmen so they can deliver decisive effects globally," General Moseley said. "We must provide squadrons with the right people with the right skill sets with the right tools. I believe moving aircraft maintenance units to the flying squadrons is best for our Air Force."
The general said he believes a unit's home station should mirror deployed flying squadrons as closely as possible.
"We should organize at home the same way we fight," he said.
"Giving the flying squadron commander the ability to take control of all levels of the flying mission is the right thing to do," said Lt. Gen. Gary L. North, the Combined Forces Air Component commander. "Putting maintenance with the flying squadron as we execute our mission in combat is the way to go."
Ultimately, most of the work in the Air Force is done at the squadron level. Therefore, the goal is to provide combatant commanders with the most complete and capable fighting squadrons possible, "whether it's training, mobilizing or generating combat power," General Moseley said.
The proposal would return aircraft maintenance units to an Air Force organizational structure that was changed about five years ago when a massive realignment moved the maintainers to maintenance groups. Under the proposed plan, other maintenance units, like component repair squadrons, will remain within maintenance groups.
At a special conference for NCOs held earlier this year, General Moseley said he believes since aircraft maintainers work directly alongside aircrews to launch airpower, they should all be part of the same squadron.
"The squadron is the building block of Air Force organizational structure and we need to organize it for success," he said. "We have our wing- and our group-level organizations right, but I don't think we're there yet at the squadron level."
General Moseley recently sent out a survey to squadron, group and wing commanders about the proposed change. He said he continues to receive feedback. Because this initiative is still in the planning stages, Air Force leaders are determining if this is the best course of action for all flying squadrons.
"I'm convinced this is absolutely the right thing to do for fighters, but I'm still getting input on whether it should apply to (unmanned aerial vehicles), airlifters, tankers and special operations aircraft as well," General Moseley said. "I've spoken with several squadron commanders, and they all want this change. Now we just need to figure out if it will work for the entire Air Force."
Airmen should not be concerned that the proposed reorganization may affect promotions or career options. After five years under the current model, there is no evidence that supports promotion rates or career options are significantly different now from what they were under the previous model, General Moseley said.
He also said this is the best way to take care of Airmen, the Air Force's most precious resource.
Source: http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123064160
What are the opinions of "our" Viper crew chiefs and other aircraft maintainers? |
_________________ Joachim Jacob
http://warthognews.blogspot.com
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Posted: Nov 19, 2008 - 12:37 AM
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VarkVet
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Posted: Aug 11, 2007 - 09:32 PM
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Forum Veteran

Joined: Oct 30, 2006
Posts: 665
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I was never a big fan of Op’s controlling maintenance … Too much of; Hey Rocky, Watch me Pull a Rabbit out of my Hat” crap goes on. |
_________________ My eyes have seen the glory of the Lord and the esthetics of the Flightline
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Meathook
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Posted: Aug 11, 2007 - 09:36 PM
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Elite 2K

Joined: May 13, 2004
Posts: 2945
Location: Utah
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Round and Round we go...how many "back to basic's" do we need to get this right...absolutely amazing that we waste so much time, energy and money on something that is so pure and simple...amazing.
Every squadron I was assigned too or managed that was aligned with a specific fighter squadron worked great, squadron pride was alway important too...it made sense then and makes sense now if the right people manage it and don't let the commander ride you into the ground for sorties and aircraft availability.
I for one loved being assigned to a specific fighter squadron, especially when I managed it, the senior enlisted person can and should make a difference in the way the maintenance activities are managed. Within reason, the person can and should control the operation and is the conduit to the commander or first sergeant...I like the old squadron concept myself, you can make a difference there, least I think so (and know it from my past experience). |
Last edited by Meathook on Aug 12, 2007 - 04:43 PM; edited 2 times in total
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mark
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Posted: Aug 11, 2007 - 09:36 PM
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Senior member

Joined: Dec 09, 2003
Posts: 380
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| Worked ok as far as I was concerned. |
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SixerViper
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Posted: Aug 12, 2007 - 03:46 AM
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Senior member

Joined: Jun 05, 2007
Posts: 354
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| I've been in CAMRONs, FISs, AGSs, and AMXSs. I never saw a gnat's a$$ of difference in any of them with respect to doing my job. As far as Ops controlling maintenance, well, they do that anyway by dictating the flying schedule. It is, after all, our job to support them; they are the USAF's warfighters. Don't worry--the ops pukes know that without maintenance, there is no flying. They just need a huge slice of humble pie to be aware that they are just a part of the whole thing just like we are. If people put their egos away they'd be amazed at how much they could get done. |
_________________ F-106A/B '69-'73
F-105D/F '73-'81
A-7D/K '81-'91
F-16C/D '91-'05
SCUBA bum '05-Present
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wrenchbender359
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Posted: Aug 12, 2007 - 07:21 AM
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Enthusiast

Joined: Oct 22, 2005
Posts: 32
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| When we were part of a fighter squadron it was smaller and more like a family. The Commander actually knew many of the maintainers by name. He could tell when he was working us too hard and I saw a lot more knock it offs called when we were getting run into the ground. Now i really don't think the commander of an AMXS has the time to go out and meet all the maintainers so he doesn't know most of us from a MPF airman. Just my opinion though |
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cutlassracer
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Posted: Aug 12, 2007 - 12:41 PM
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Senior member

Joined: Mar 08, 2006
Posts: 272
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| I liked having a pilot for a commander. He has a job. Maint officers have no job other than thinking up new ways of screwing us, or that was my experience anyway. I will say I was never in AGS, just EMS. When I came back to the states (1992) AMU's had gone away and we belonged to ops. |
_________________ Torrejon, Homestead, Moody, Osan, Holloman
USAF Crew Chief 89-99
F-16D 90-0794/90-0779
F-117A 83-0807
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Arctus
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Posted: Aug 12, 2007 - 02:31 PM
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Active Member

Joined: May 13, 2006
Posts: 165
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As a recovering ops puke...I liked the unifed squadron concept too. As a life support NCOIC I found it much easier to build a rapport with the "bros" in maintenance. It made scheduling chute/kit work and getting on the jet easier. In fact, the ability to pop into a flight chief's or the pro-super's office to work out the occasional change-to-the-change it made things a lot easier. On a side note, as I've said here before in several of the incentive ride theads, I HATED supporting incentive rides EXCEPT for maintenance, especially the guys in my own squadron. I tried to impress upon my shop that here was our one best chance to showcase what we do. Treat your squadronmates right--it will pay dividends in the long run.
I know some old school wrench benders miss the DCM days but I saw it both ways and much preferred having Mx in the fighter squadron.
If Mx and Ops gets re-unified then I hope all of Mx gets put into the Ops Group. 1 OG/CC with a DDO and a DDM side by side |
_________________ 354 FW Eielson 02-05
389 FS Mtn Home 99-02
54 & 90 FS Elmendorf 91-99
479 TTW Holloman 84-91
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JoeBag
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Posted: Aug 12, 2007 - 03:11 PM
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Enthusiast

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 42
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| Being a crew chief I like being part of a Fighter Squadron. I like to say that I'm a member of the 555th FS not the 31FW AMU. I hope things go back to the "old" way. Time will tell. |
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VarkVet
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Posted: Aug 12, 2007 - 04:29 PM
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Joined: Oct 30, 2006
Posts: 665
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SixerViper wrote:
I've been in CAMRONs, FISs, AGSs, and AMXSs. I never saw a gnat's a$$ of difference in any of them with respect to doing my job. As far as Ops controlling maintenance, well, they do that anyway by dictating the flying schedule. It is, after all, our job to support them; they are the USAF's warfighters. Don't worry--the ops pukes know that without maintenance, there is no flying. They just need a huge slice of humble pie to be aware that they are just a part of the whole thing just like we are. If people put their egos away they'd be amazed at how much they could get done.
Don't want to be rude, but, screw it
You speak very well out of your a$$ grasshopper!
Maintainers’ pounding the ramp is not the only thing keeping these jets flying. They have these things called “Meetings” where the big boys go … and flying schedule, Phase Flow, what’s broke, etc is discussed. They may even play a little “Stump the Dummy”
Notice how EMS/CRS will stay in the MX complex? Hell if we are going to Reorg, lets do POMO
I might be out of touch with current active duty discipline, but if I’m in the 79th, I’m in the 79th regardless if I’m a fixer or a flyer?
I really don’t think we need to over task a Fighter Squadron Commander with the maintenance side, especially Enlisted
wrenchbender359 wrote
Family?
No Slack in Fighter Attack … It’s a business, very serious business delivering a safe and capable aircraft to our aircrew |
_________________ My eyes have seen the glory of the Lord and the esthetics of the Flightline
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vinnie
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Posted: Aug 12, 2007 - 06:58 PM
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Senior member

Joined: Feb 06, 2004
Posts: 396
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| Didn't work well in the 68th, commanders did not want anything to do with maint and it showed. Had the worst retention rate in the f-16 world but then again we are talking about Moody. |
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wrenchbender359
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Posted: Aug 12, 2007 - 07:40 PM
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Enthusiast

Joined: Oct 22, 2005
Posts: 32
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Family?
No Slack in Fighter Attack … It’s a business, very serious business delivering a safe and capable aircraft to our aircrew
I meant a tighter knit group. I have yet to meet any of my Pilots since the reorg. Believe me I ALWAYS deliver safe acft to the aircrew. |
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Slimm
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Posted: Aug 13, 2007 - 01:32 AM
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Joined: Oct 28, 2006
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Don't necessarily agree with it. It's too easy for Ops to abuse the weekly schedule, even if it means taking jets out of Scheduled Mx or adding jets that were going to sit for Phase flow mgt just to make front lines.
Who write's the OIC's ticket? If it's the CC (as before), then there will always be that pressure to please the boss to avoid a possible bad OPR. Seen it before.
Not every Capt has the testicular fortitude to stand up to a Lt Col (or the Scheduler du Jour), especially if they'll run to the CC for arbitration.
It's not an easy position for a young Mx Officer to be in. |
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Meathook
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Posted: Aug 13, 2007 - 01:54 AM
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Elite 2K

Joined: May 13, 2004
Posts: 2945
Location: Utah
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I agree but it never has been, that is why we, the enlisted were tasked to train that person, if we do it right, the "O" begins to understand the true picture of the line and production efforts. However, a good Maint Super does and should have the balls to say - no more cant support it! You have to be a part time politician and hard a$$ all while trusting your trained folks and allowing them to do their jobs as you do yours which is standing up to the Captain or Commander if needed.
There are many ways to skin a cat if the pressure from "ops" becomes to great but keep in mind, they are the ones being placed directly in harms way. The need as much training as we can muster and provide as long as the aircraft hold out and we don't work our folks into an early grave per-say.
If we are deployed to the theater of operation, we need to bend over backwards to produce sorties that just might be needed in saving lives (possibly our own), we all know that and it is done daily. We just have to occasionally fight for a break when needed, that's the job of both the Pro-Super and the Maint Super...and the Maint OIC if he or she is doing their job right.
In my past, I soon discovered it was the job of the enlisted to take care of the whole damn squadron (if you really think about it), first to teach the "O's" how to be leaders, then provide the aircraft to go to war while taking care of the men and women of the squadron.
We all stand together in the long run, but sometimes, you need to defend ourselves against an over zealous OIC and Operations who just want to fly no matter what the cost, that's when being a strong enlisted leader and knowing your limitations or pushing them pays off for all involved. It's not easy (especially these days) but if it was easy anyone could do it and that is just not the case. I like the idea, it worked for years and many a great leader and technician was produced while being ready for war.
That's my take on it, having been there and done that myself. |
Last edited by Meathook on Aug 13, 2007 - 02:48 PM; edited 1 time in total
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MaddogF16
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Posted: Aug 13, 2007 - 03:13 AM
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Joined: Jul 17, 2007
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| As a old timer from both sides I have to admitt that the "team" unit works waaaaaay better not to mention the complete family feeling...I worked as a "load toad" on Hogs at Myrtle from 81-83 then went back to fly them in Korea, and Alex before going to the Viper. Loved the whole team world waaaaaaaaay better..!! |
_________________ MaddogF16
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