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Newbie Joined: Jul 10, 2007 Posts: 19 Status: Offline

I'm pretty much a newbie, but I haven't seen this topic covered here or elsewhere.

Does anybody know if there's any non classified info about performance of the F-22 ( and the F-35 for that matter) with some of the stealth compromised? It seems reasonable to expect that in real combat, things are going to degrade at times -- damage from stuff blowing up nearby, a hung missile launcher, etc.

Just curious because there seems to be alot of focus on the stealth aspect.
I hope that they're training for some degree of compromised operation.

Thanks,

ford2go

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This must be a huge (see: nuke-ul-ar) explosion to damage the F-22 at the altitudes it will operate !

I suppose "information" and "F-22" alphanumericals in the same sentence is a bit of a paradox, so I wouldn't be very sure of such data existing...Sorry to say that.

Enthusiast Joined: May 17, 2007 Posts: 46 Status: Offline

Why does everyone think the LO coating is fragile? We've come a long way from the F-117, and B2 coatings.

Newbie Joined: Jul 10, 2007 Posts: 19 Status: Offline

Sounds like there isn't any unclassified info available.

But. just to clarify. I'm not dissing the Raptor or its stealth tech. I'm sure that it's robust. My point is that it seems to be an important part of what makes it superior.

Given that, how much of a degradation does it suffer if the stealth is compromised. If the Raptor is ever in heavy combat, it will happen sometime. This is not saying that the stealth is fragile -- just that a lot of things happen in combat.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

ford2go

Elite 1K Joined: Aug 19, 2004 Posts: 1092

I suppose if it's damaged in combat its stealth has already been compromised. I mean... you're asking a question that has an obvious answer, but you're not thinking about what would lead up to the F-22 being damaged. F-22 gets shot at and hit by something like bullets, flak, shrapnel from a missile warhead, etc. Well gee... I guess it was detected for that to happen in the first place. If it's got jagged edges hanging off the wings, fuselage, tail, etc, the stealth will be compromised. How much depends on where the damage is in relation to the radar sources trying to detect the Raptor. If it's got damage on the aft dorsal section of the fuselage for example, radars with a view of only the forward ventral portion of the fuselage will not have an easier time getting a lock, tracking the F-22, etc. If you switched the damaged section to the forward ventral portion of the F-22's fuselage, then the radar looking right at that spot on the F-22 might get a decent return. It depends on how much damage has been done and the physical nature of that damage in terms of how it affects the F-22's radar cross section. This is not classified information, it's just common sense. If you know that the F-22 relies on precise shaping to reduce its radar signature to very low observable status, anything disrupting this careful shaping (even a single bullet or shrapnel hole) will affect stealthiness. How much is completely variable just like the F-22's radar cross section is variable depending on its orientation relative to a radar emitter.

Battle damage = your stealth was compromised, you were shot at, you were hit. It's no surprise taking battle damage will make you even more vulnerable than you already made yourself in the first place. Oh... and compromised stealth would likely be the least of a pilot's worries in this situation.

Enthusiast Joined: Jun 01, 2004 Posts: 53

Raptor_One, you're right on the spot. But i guess the bottom line of ford2go's question is that, should it happen, the raptor being compromised of its stealth, what can we expect of its performance and do the pilots have some sort of training operating in a, what you can say, a "compromised" operation. and i think it's a fairly good question to ask.

and to answer your question ford2go, i'm pretty sure all raptor pilots, like all the other fighter pilots have defensive maneuver trainings. and should any damage be incurred, as long as it's not fatal to the plane, i think it still can stand its own even with compromised stealth. stealth is just an additional aspect to the raptor's capabilities. that's why it is considered a fifth gen aircraft, a class on its own (except for the f-35). strip it of its stealth and you still have a much more capable fighter, if not the most that's in service to this day.

Newbie Joined: Jan 07, 2007 Posts: 6 Status: Offline

ford2go:

My guess is that you're not asking specifically about battle damage. I read you question as "if you take away stealth, how is the F-22 in a fight?" If that is the question then understand that the F-22 is a blend of 4 technologies into one plane.

-Stealth
stories of F-15 and F-16 pilots cursing that they never even saw the F-22 during training and would get a notice that they had been killed are all over sites like this. There's even the quote from the RAAF pilot in a F-15 had a F-22 in visual and the F-15's sensors couldn't lock onto the F-22. But without stealth:

-Thrust
The power to weight on the F-22 is amazing...allowing for mach 1.5+ speeds without afterburner. although actual numbers are classified, I would bet that the F-22 is top dog in the world right now for acceleration. And with the thrust vectoring and super large control surfaces it can out perform anything else I've seen fly.

-Sensor fusion
The F-22 has an incredible radar/sensor suite and was conceived with fusion in mind. Even more so with the F-35. The articles on the F-22's sensors and the situational awareness it gives her pilots are all over this website or fencecheck.com (read posts from dozer...excellent perspective)

-Super maneuverability
although not as hyped as the other three, this is something that the F-22 seems to also had as part of the original Air Force spec on the ATF program.

From everything I read and seen in live demos, the F-22 has better handling and power than any other fighter. So I guess to sum it up there is a lot more to a 5th generation aircraft than just stealth. a lot more

Jeff

Elite 1K Joined: Aug 19, 2004 Posts: 1092

The original purpose of having a true stealth fighter was to improve the fighter's survivability when operating over hostile airspace where SAMs and AAA might bring down a non-stealthy fighter (even if it had the same flight performance of the F-22). And of course it was to make the thing more lethal against enemy air assets. Take away the stealth and the F-22 is much more likely to incur battle damage. If the real stealthy F-22 does incur battle damage, it should still be more capable than any other battle-damaged aircraft in terms of fighting its way--or simply running--out of hostile territory. It'll still be stealthier with battle damage than a non-stealthy aircraft with battle damage. Heck, even on one engine the F-22 will still fly at a fairly decent rate of speed. A single F119-PW-100 puts out considerable amounts of thrust, especially in AB. A wounded Raptor with only one engine is still going to be lethal, especially if it still has operational bay doors, weapons, fire control radar, avionics, etc. Common sense says that the F-22 should be more survivable after incurring battle damage than any other operational combat aircraft.

We want to hope that the stealth works. I read somewhere that the F-117's are on the wind down and the Raptors are going to take over.

Parkeran

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