Wasn't this done during the "X phase" of this program? Isn't that how it's always been done? The engine that has the performance, weight, and price for the program wins? At which point the other engine is dropped. Buying 2 different engines AFTER you've already decided to buy a fighter is dumb in my book. (F-16 mixed fleet is a prime example of what NOT to do... )

If GE (or any other country) thinks the F136 is such a good option, why aren't they funding it? Call it investment? No, they want US tax-payer money to do the job, even though the US Government has decided against the F136 once, twice, do I hear three times?

It makes me mad being one of those tax payers, knowing they are still spending MILLIONS of dollars doing studies and research (of which none actually goes to making F-35s) just to determine IF they should reinstate F136 funding!?

Say what they want about savings, but long term logistics supporting 2 different motors quickly kills any initial savings.

Upgrades are another matter; If you have a budget to enhance your engines with durability improvements over the next 30 years, (Like both USAF has done with the F100/F110) you need to split the money between both engines to support the F-35 program as a whole. (or double the budget to do so?)

How much are we saving here

Again it seems we're spending money in the name of saving it...
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The one thing I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is engine reliability. I flew a PW200 for many years before they began to give up the ghost and died regularly...stuff Pacer Century didn't always reveal. Never had to give a plane back to the taxpayers, but I know a lot of guys who did.

As for Pacer Century, that's going way back . . . back . . . back . . . 1974 era.

Comparing the new F119 and F135 to the F100-PW-200 is like comparing the F136 to the J79. Wasn't that the last single GE engine in a fighter? The J79 in the F-104? I would like to see mishap data comparing F-104/J79 with the F-16A/F100-PW-200. I bet the -200 would still win, but then again you're talking a generational gap. There are almost 3 generations between the F100-PW-200 and the F136.

The -200s were not great, and as such they were removed from USAF inventory before their older siblings, namely the -100s still in some F-15As!?

The F100-PW-229 has a best "Class-A" mishap rate than any other engine, including the GE F110s of any sub-type according to USAF data. To date (knocking on wood while I type) no Class-A mishaps in a USAF F-16 has been caused by a -229. GE can not say this even with the -129.

There were no "alternate engines" for the F-15, KC-135R, C-5, C-17, or A-10 pogroms. If the grounding of their engines won't crush the USAF then why would the F-35? (or the F-16?) Why does everyone still think this is a "good thing" to save money? If an aircraft/engine fly-off is done, and a contract is awarded on performance/price, then why do we still spend money on the "non-winner"?

PW has taken their -200 medicine, and have learned their lessons. They're not about to make the same mistakes of the past, and I believe the USAF/DOD knows that. They wouldn't have been awarded such a big contract if anyone in the USAF/DOD felt otherwise. I believe the USAF has learned from it's mixed F-16 fleet, and the complicated process to deploy "like engined units" The USAF is moving to truly save money on their new aircraft.

My point of view isn't necessarily rational...however, there isn't a active duty Viper unit left that flys combat coded PW aircraft...they're all stuck in AETC or the Guard guys who feel fortunate to have escaped the BRAC. Kind of sends a signal doesn't it?

Excellent...thought I'd stir the pot a bit. I flew the J79 for several years (late '70's) and hardly ever lost more than one engine a year. Having two engines was good. So the comments on why the A-10, etc didn't need two types of engines is kind of specious. Ditto the comment that the USAF didn't ask for it...when you're financially constrained, the powers that be cannot ask for more...however, free things (from a HQ USAF POV) get added to the budget every year and the USAF rarely says no.

The reason I entered this fight in the first place is because the GE110/129 engines were the ones the Viper community prefers to fly. My point of view isn't necessarily rational...however, there isn't a active duty Viper unit left that flys combat coded PW aircraft...they're all stuck in AETC or the Guard guys who feel fortunate to have escaped the BRAC. Kind of sends a signal doesn't it?




Kind of boils down to an Operational vs Maintenance discussion doesn't it? From a purely logistical point of view, having multiple engine types is expensive. From an operational point of view...and considering the way the engine buy went in the Viper program, it's nice to have a choice when you get the first several hundred jets flying and can determine which is more reliable/has more thrustees.

Anyway...that's my thought process. Not looking to change anybody else's, but I'm not unhappy Congress has thrown GE a bone.

Not looking to change anybody else's, but I'm not unhappy Congress has thrown GE a bone.

... there isn't a active duty Viper unit left that flys combat coded PW aircraft...they're all stuck in AETC or the Guard guys who feel fortunate to have escaped the BRAC. Kind of sends a signal doesn't it?

(2) The current arrangement is that F110 technicians don't do F100s or vice versa. With the F-35 they'll be trained to do both. In fact, from a removal and reinstall standpoint there is no difference between the two engine's external layouts.

(3) With the F100/F110 servicing is a fix it on location model. With the F135/136 they are planning it as a depot maintenance scheme (like commercial airliner engines). In general, the idea is to have a number of standby engines, you pull and swap engines you then send the removed engines to GE or PW's depots for overhaul. And they can cross ship you an engine even before you sent out yours so you never actually have to wait for the removed engine to be fixed. And in any case you should have the appropriate number of spare, ready to go engines ready to swap into a jet. Engines are engines and they will not be tied to a specific tail number. The services will buy more engines that airframes.