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Newbie Joined: Jul 12, 2007 Posts: 11 Status: Offline

Dear all,

I am looking for concrete proofs against an absurd claim in another discussion board that the F-22 can only launch AMRAAMs in stable, level flight.

The perpetuator of this ridiculous claim insists that the F-22 cannot fire AMRAAM in dive, turn, or steep climb.

Against this, I found two pieces so far.

Page 253, FY2003 Annual Report to Director, Operational Test and Evaluation

"Safe separation unguided missile launches have been conducted at high angles of attack, under supersonic conditions, and at high roll rates. Guided missile launches, essential to validate the F/A-22's combat capability, are continuing in accordance with DOT&E-approved operational scenarios."

and

http://www.aiaa.org/content.cfm?page...aper&gID=23344

Validation of Weapon Separation Predictions Using F/A-22 Flight Test Results
W. Baker, S. Keen and C. Morgret, Aerospace Testing Alliance, Arnold AFB, TN
AIAA-2004-6803
USAF Developmental Test and Evaluation Summit, Woodland Hills, California, Nov. 16-18, 2004

It costs 25 USD to read the full article but some googling returned the following line in the article.

"The F/A-22 has a unique requirement to launch AMRAAM missiles at high aircraft roll rates."

I would greatly appreciate if anyone could provide more proofs.

Thanks in advance,
Sunho

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Opsec, anyone? Gotta love those first posts...

Elite 1K Joined: Jul 20, 2005 Posts: 1035 Status: Offline

It's not an OPSEC violation to respond to the question...in this case its highly publicized that the Raptor could actually fire slammers inverted...just as almost every other fighter could for that matter. Of course since the 120's are literally slammed out of the bay, you could almost bet on no problems with an inverted negative G situation. Not sure that would ever happen, but its possible I guess.

Understood checksixx, I just think it odd when a first time poster none of us knows comes out with a question like that even if it's open source stuff. Least you should do is have some sort of intro?

Having said that I have a hard time imagining why you would need to be inverted for a BVR shot anyway.

Enthusiast Joined: Jun 09, 2005 Posts: 49 Status: Offline

Ace02 wrote:

Understood checksixx, I just think it odd when a first time poster none of us knows comes out with a question like that even if it's open source stuff. Least you should do is have some sort of intro?

Having said that I have a hard time imagining why you would need to be inverted for a BVR shot anyway.

Yes it is I'm new and know better especially since I'm in the Air Force this guy is asking a very questionable question on here. I agree be carefull let him find it on a public website from the manufacture or AF site that's cleared...

Elite 1K Joined: May 10, 2005 Posts: 1124 Status: Offline

Quote:

I would greatly appreciate if anyone could provide more proofs.

Like what? You said yourself that the original claim was "absurd" and "ridiculous" and anybody stupid enough to stick to that claim is not going to be swayed by anything. You already posted 2 pretty good "proofs" yourself.....I'm pretty sure any video of an F-22 pulling 9 Gs and launcing a 120 is going to be difficult to come by.

You might want to mention that since the object of having an F-22 in the first place is to have your first indication that you are a target be when the 120 comes screaming down at you, that if there is a need for an inverted, heavy G shot, something is wrong.

Elite 1K Joined: Jul 20, 2005 Posts: 1035 Status: Offline

VPRFIXER wrote:

Ace02 wrote:

Understood checksixx, I just think it odd when a first time poster none of us knows comes out with a question like that even if it's open source stuff. Least you should do is have some sort of intro?

Having said that I have a hard time imagining why you would need to be inverted for a BVR shot anyway.

Yes it is I'm new and know better especially since I'm in the Air Force this guy is asking a very questionable question on here. I agree be carefull let him find it on a public website from the manufacture or AF site that's cleared...

Again, it is NOT an OPSEC violation. Many of us here are in or have been in the Air Force so telling us that you know better cause your in the Air Force doesn't really mean a whole lot. Specifically, there is no concrete proof being provided other than almost every fighter on the planet can launch AtA missiles from almost any angle or position. Please tell us oh wise one, how is that harming the operational security for the F-22??

Enthusiast Joined: Jun 09, 2005 Posts: 49 Status: Offline

checksixx wrote:

Again, it is NOT an OPSEC violation. Many of us here are in or have been in the Air Force so telling us that you know better cause your in the Air Force doesn't really mean a whole lot. Specifically, there is no concrete proof being provided other than almost every fighter on the planet can launch AtA missiles from almost any angle or position. Please tell us oh wise one, how is that harming the operational security for the F-22??

First of all you don't have to be so plain arrogant in your posting I have been in 20+ years Active Reserve and Guard so don't tell me about OPSEC. Second all I said is direct him to official sources for him to get correct and cleared information not hearsay from forum writers that think they know it all. I didn't say it was a opsec violation so read next time instead of jumping to conclusions. No I'm not a oh wise one and I doubt you are also so why don't you back off being so high and mighty.

Elite 1K Joined: Jul 20, 2005 Posts: 1035 Status: Offline

LoL...your easy to get going arn't you! My question still stands. As far as hearsay...some of us have worked in and with the F-22 program so we may know a thing or two.

edit: Oh, and I never said that you said anything...

geez sorry guys, my bad
I wasn't trying to start something here, I was just calling attention to, what I felt was an odd inital post. No introduction, no how ya doin, etc. I never said it was a violation, that's not for me to decide, it just sent up a red flag the way it was worded and that's all.

I guess it's really more about forum etiquette than opsec.

heck, checksixx I thought I was agreeing with you?

Enthusiast Joined: Jun 09, 2005 Posts: 49 Status: Offline

checksixx wrote:

LoL...your easy to get going arn't you! My question still stands. As far as hearsay...some of us have worked in and with the F-22 program so we may know a thing or two.

edit: Oh, and I never said that you said anything...

Oh yes you did read your first 2 sentences and you might see were I'm coming from it was really arrogant. Second I doubt you've been in a combat zone due to being on the F-22 and a little word or question that seemes no big deal almost gets you killed. I'll give one story on OPSEC when I was at Kirkuk AB Iraq 2003 my "1st time" in Iraq we were going to have a fun run to get everyone out and stay fit etc. Well the word got around and someone said it front of a TCN and guess what when we 40+ runners were out running on the field. What happened was we had 3 rockets come inbound and air burst above us just after we started hummm. I was not stating anything about the F-22 I don't anything about it and don't want to I like the F-16 which I have been on 18+ years and I was just agreeing with ACE02 that he was new and nothing about him asking on information and he should check out official channels on information.

Elite 1K Joined: Jul 20, 2005 Posts: 1035 Status: Offline

Then you simply took what I wrote to hard. If you did, I'm sorry. I've seen plenty of combat zones (where and when are nobody's business)...I've never been attached to any F-22 unit specifically. If your going to throw out the 'I'm in the Air Force' thing, tell a bit more...Like me for instance...if I were to phrase it that way (which I would never do anyways), I would say that having been assigned to the 1st Fighter Wing at Langley, and having helped usher in the Raptor program and knowing the definition of OPSEC, here is my answer XXXXX. Not...'trust me because I'm in the Air Force'. You could be a cook for all anyone knows.

As far as the original poster...yes, it would have been nice to get some background from you. As far as answering your question...OPSEC would prevent me from telling you how we employ the Raptor and its systems. It does not prevent me from telling you that the F-22---LIKE ANY OTHER FIGHTER---could in theory fire slammers inverted if needed. Not sure how one would find themselves in that situation, but its possible. Whether or not you choose to believe me as credible or concrete is up to you. Ask Dozer over at fencecheck, he has answered the question before, I'm sure he'll be glad to do it again. Max is on the airshowbuzz forums, but he doesn't answer a whole lot of detailed aircraft questions.

Hopefully everyone feels better about themselves now.

Elite 1K Joined: May 10, 2005 Posts: 1124 Status: Offline

Quote:

someone said it front of a TCN

Most likely an LN, as TCNs don't have much to do with the LNs outside the wire to pass such nuggets on.......The fun run was a word of mouth thing? No flyers posted or announcements in the base paper? How'd they get people to show up?

Elite 1K Joined: Jul 20, 2005 Posts: 1035 Status: Offline

We had lots of problems with TCN's when we opened PSAB, but they were getting most info while working in the chow hall. TCN to LN, LN to bad guys. We 'fixed' the issue of eavesdropping roughly, loudly and publicly...it stopped.

Elite 1K Joined: May 10, 2005 Posts: 1124 Status: Offline

Balad's issue is the LNs from outside...the TCNs mostly live on base, save for the truckers and whatnot who come and go. The LNs would gather intel, usually under threat. They caught a guy with a handheld GPS by one of the DFACs while I was there, and we caught a couple of guys digging thru our trash while supposedly there hooking up the shower trailer.....the LNs were forever in the trash....you really had to watch 'em. Easy way to tell LN from TCN....the TCNs didn't dig in the trash. We were REAL careful about what we threw away...no address labels, no memos or schedules or things with dates on them. They were forever catching people pacing things off. There were too many rounds close to the DFACs and PX for me to believe that it wasn't aimed fire. Fortunately, there was little of value on the W side where I lived, so we didn't get hit much...one UXO in our compound though, and we parked the fire truck on top of one during a drill on the airfield....fun.

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