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If you want to know why there is a lack of commitment from big European players such as Germany and France you can point the finger at one culprit - Iraq.

Ludicrous. Kosovo happened long before GWII. No one in Europe with perhaos the exception of the UK wanted to do anything about it. It took the US. They won;t spill blood for their fellow Europeans. All those years the US spent a fortune on defending Europe (why right now is irrelevant) and what did they do. Spend next to nothing on their own defence. Why not, they had the US to do it for them. Why not spend that money susbsidising European industry instead. Iraq is nothing but the latest excuse.

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After 9/11 Europe along with the world shows massive support for the US, the French (which is very rare to see something like this from them) said "We are all Americans". The war on terror had massive support.

Actions speak louder than words. Europe liked it when we where the victim. They hated it when we refused to be such. Why? Because it highlighted Europe's impotence thats why.

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The US, as Synpa said, is the only superpower in the world, whats the point in having a massive military if your not going to use it when the time calls for it.

But we do use it when it suits our perceived interests. You just don;t like the way we use it. Sorry, you don't have a vote in that one. Defending Europe from the Russians is not worth going to war over and I guarantee you unless something happens to the US troops currently based there as a convenience (as well in part as a deterrent, the US would not send their sons and daughters to bleed again for Europe.

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Whats the difference between China going power crazy and invading Taiwan

1. We would be fighting to our strength and there would be no large commitment of ground forces.
2. We have far more economic interests in the far east than in Europe.

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In fact, most European nations refuse to reinforce the NATO mission in Afghanistan while UK,US Canadian troops are bearing the brunt.

Gee I wonder why? Fighting terrorism is in everyone's interest but the Europeans don;t seem to think so.

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Why does Bush want to build a missile defense in Europe for example?

Because it's far easier to shoot down the random ICBM from Iran or or Russia during the boost phase of the flight. The fact that it covers Europe is what makes it possible for us to site them there. Don;t believe for a minute that if it made sense to base them in CONUS that they wouldn't be.

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but your masters want to be world policemen,

Masters must be an English thing. Last I looked I had none except the wife and kids. It is right and proper that we police when it suits our national interest. I never said anything about isolationism. I just said don;t bet on the US coming to Europe's aid when they stuff hits the fan. There is no will for it. That may change again in the future but right now don't bet on it.

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Elite 1K Joined: Jul 26, 2005 Posts: 1455 Status: Offline

Snypa wrote:

Why does Bush want to build a missile defense in Europe for example?

Thumper3181 wrote:

Because it's far easier to shoot down the random ICBM from Iran or or Russia during the boost phase of the flight. The fact that it covers Europe is what makes it possible for us to site them there. Don;t believe for a minute that if it made sense to base them in CONUS that they wouldn't be.

The missile defense was a bad example on my part. Ok, so I now know why the US wants a missile defense in Europe, it`s obvious why the US has tens of thousands of personnel in Europe, for your own interests, fair enough.

The missile defense works in Europe's favor as well. It is also handy for missiles launched from Russia....That is why Putin has his draws twisted about it. My point was basically, why have US troops in Europe at all if the US won`t get into a fight if Russia got pissed? Why don`t you pack up and go home? You could base your forces elsewhere? You won`t because we have this treaty called NATO! What is NATO for? It is for the mutual defense of western Europe and the US, an attack on any one country is an attack on us all. I am not so naive that I think that would happen under ALL circumstances (tiny conflicts for example) but a Russian attack is one of them, most definitely. Like it or not we are an alliance, like every friendship it has it`s issues but the US does have TRUE friends in Europe, small militarily but true friends none-the-less. Would the US turn it`s back on a friend like the UK? I guess so if it suited the US according to you, Thumper. That is a shame.

Snypa wrote:

...but your masters want to be world policemen,

Thumper3181 wrote:

Masters must be an English thing. Last I looked I had none except the wife and kids.

Hehe! That was truly funny Laughing

Yes, "political masters", the head Honchos, the big cheese, the "Man", commander in chief...you get the picture!

Well, it`s Friday night, it`s been emotional fellas`, see you on the other side! Cool

Enthusiast Joined: Jan 05, 2007 Posts: 41 Status: Offline

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My point was basically, why have US troops in Europe at all if the US won`t get into a fight if Russia got pissed? Why don`t you pack up and go home? You could base your forces elsewhere? You won`t because we have this treaty called NATO! What is NATO for? It is for the mutual defense of western Europe and the US, an attack on any one country is an attack on us all. I am not so naive that I think that would happen under ALL circumstances (tiny conflicts for example) but a Russian attack is one of them, most definitely. Like it or not we are an alliance, like every friendship it has it`s issues but the US does have TRUE friends in Europe, small militarily but true friends none-the-less. Would the US turn it`s back on a friend like the UK? I guess so if it suited the US according to you, Thumper. That is a shame.

OK. Its pretty obvious that the US acts according to their own goals,so, would the US turn its back on friends if need be?? of course! but so would [and have done] the UK.ie.Churchill wanting our[Aussie] troops to stay in Europe whilst Jap forces knocked on our door!
In a post Hitler world every nation must trust and act in its own interest [of course the trick is to try to align those interests with other nations thus NATO and similar]
From way down here at the bottom of the world it is heartbreaking to see the treatment and lack of support for the US forces[stuff the pollies] from so called Euro allies when not so long ago many young US lives were lost in defence of these so called allies...[many US lives were also lost in the pacific....at least in Australia we will never forget the sacrifice of the US]

Newbie Joined: Jul 21, 2007 Posts: 5 Status: Offline

Ye are Unbelievable, Europe is just as integrated as america, we are a month or two away from a common foreign policy, our currency is soon to be the number one currency in the world, the only reason the dollar is still strong is because china is buying it as a favour to the states, we are maybe a year away from a european army, training is already goinin on in ireland, with a most countries present, i think of myself as european aswell as irish, the EU constituition was shot down because of power plays and misinformation, not because the countries where it was voted against didnt want it! Europe will be a super state, more powerfull than the Us in everthing but military, we make friends not enemies, Iran now trades in euro's for it's oil, iraq was going to do the same before it was invaded(a major reason for the invasion), there is only one place europe is going and that is up! the US cant stand it that europe is regaining it's grip on the world after 150 years of decline!

Elite 1K Joined: Aug 01, 2006 Posts: 1003 Status: Offline

FightingIrish wrote:

Ye are Unbelievable, Europe is just as integrated as america, we are a month or two away from a common foreign policy, our currency is soon to be the number one currency in the world, the only reason the dollar is still strong is because china is buying it as a favour to the states, we are maybe a year away from a european army, training is already goinin on in ireland, with a most countries present, i think of myself as european aswell as irish, the EU constituition was shot down because of power plays and misinformation, not because the countries where it was voted against didnt want it! Europe will be a super state, more powerfull than the Us in everthing but military, we make friends not enemies, Iran now trades in euro's for it's oil, iraq was going to do the same before it was invaded(a major reason for the invasion), there is only one place europe is going and that is up! the US cant stand it that europe is regaining it's grip on the world after 150 years of decline!

I think you are getting it all wrong. The US doesn't want a strong dollar and China is certainly not buying the dollar as a favor to the USA. The US wants a weak dollar to help reduce the trade imbalance, increase exports and reduce imports. There is no attempt on the US part to increase the value of the dollar, in fact we are trying to increase the value of the YUAN! The Chinese are buying the dollar as an industrial subsidy policy to extend the trade imbalance's magnitude and duration. They know that its a money losing purchase, but they calculated that the losses will be less than the gains from the competitive edge it renders their domestic industry in the export market.

The ONLY thing a strong dollar is good for is US tourists visiting Europe or anywhere else. It is bad for the US economy, it is bad for Boeing, it is bad for General Motors, it is bad for domestic industry in general.

The problem with Europe apart from the lack in unity among its EU members is the entrenched SOCIALISM. More social entitlements and higher taxes = less competitive society. Period. This is also why the economic growth of France, Germany, and other leading EU states is roughly HALF that of the USA. And it is not like we haven't had our share of leftist policies -- Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Welfare, Prescription drug benefits, public education, etc -- we have it all UNFORTUNATELY. Just not to the extent that Europe has it. And look what a difference the lower bum support level brings us! Clearly superior economic performance. What we need to do is cut back further on these parasite policies -- or better yet eliminate them completely -- and go back to more purely capitalistic roots and meritocratic swim or sink competition. We should also cut taxes to 10~15% and make it either a flat tax or a national sales tax. Progressive taxation does only one thing -- punish success and reward failure, and in doing so discourage success and encourage failure.

At least there is a rising conservative movement here who wants to throw out the Liberal Republicans and steer the party towards a more conservative direction. We refused to vote for the current EXETREMLY LIBERAL Republican party forced them to forfiet their majority when they refused to represent right wing values. More is to come...

[quote="snypa777"]
In fact, most European nations refuse to reinforce the NATO mission in Afghanistan while UK,US Canadian troops are bearing the brunt. The only country worth mentioning with some balls are the Dutch who are committed, along with Polish troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. If we don`t like the political aspects of Iraq/Afghanistan, why bother to get involved at all? We either get involved full bore or don`t do anything, not this piecemeal effort where nations with sizable armies send a couple of platoons.
[quote]
Romania –750 - 1 battalion in Zabul (479 personnel), 1 guard detachment in Kandahar (193 personnel), a reconnaissance squad in Mazari Sharif (6 personnel); additionally, a special forces squad (39 personnel) and a training detachment (47 personnel) are deployed.

Newbie Joined: Jul 21, 2007 Posts: 5 Status: Offline

To dwight
How is there a lack of unity in the EU's members? Europe has a bigger economy than the usa,and will get way bigger once the new members get up and running properly. taxes in ireland run at 20%, yet we have everything provided for us by our government, much the same for the european continent, your forgeting the lesson's learned in europe, look after your population or they will rise against you! your talking about creating a social elite based soley on how much money they have! Keep on goin down that road and see where it gets ye. If America were any other country the World bank would have taken over, thats how bad things have gotten for ye, ye owe that much to so many.I cant find recent figures for american economic growth, europe however has 3% with 7% unemployment, this even with the old eastern block dragging the figures way down. Ther big companies wont allow a sink or swim situation to arise, they control everything in america, in 1940 50% of federal taxes came from corporations, now it's 5%, at the start of the last century 90% of yere owrk force was self employed now it's two percent? who has more control over there governments? George bush cheated to get into power, only in america could he stay in power, why? cause he is backed by the big coporations! Ye blow on about freedom all the time, ye dont even realise that ye have less freedom today than ever before and you are sitting there touting pure capitalism, pure anything doesnt work, never has never will.It's only a matter of time till the gap between rich and poor grows so large that the poor will do somehting about it! then everything will come crashing down on yere pure capitalist heads, dont get me wrong, im all for free trade but at what cost to the greater population, and there fore the greater good.

Guys and gals,

The title of the thread is China - F-35. I don't know where it went awry, but I'm going to lock it down for further review.

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