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Elite 1K Joined: Aug 02, 2006 Posts: 1003 Status: Offline

Let's put it this way. P&W has been thoroughly screwed in the Civilian market. Or rather, they screwed themselves out of the game. As recently as 2000 they were on top of the game with a good 1/3 of the new aircraft market and roughly 60% of certain specific high volume sellers like the A330. Then, in 7 years, they got basically booted out of the game. They are done with big twins -- neither the A350 or the B787 will have P&W engines. The 777 is a dead horse for them with the high weight versions being a GE exclusive. They'll only have half of an engine choice on the A380 which isn't moving fast anyway. The PW6000 is also a failure on the A318 and they are out of the 737/A320 game. In short, they are done, period.

And it's all their fault really. First they FAILED to deliver the PW4072 for the A330. Just didn't turn it out, period. Then they delivered the PW4098 for the 777 and missed TSFC targets by 6% and basically have to literally give it to ONE customer (Korean Air) and nothing afterwards. They lost the bid on the 787 in which they pitched and all new design, which led to having nothing to offer on the A350. While all of these is going on, they tried to get into the single aisle market with the PW6000 which again failed to deliver the promised TSFC numbers by 3~4% and got walked all over by the already established CFM56 and to a lesser degree the IAE V2500s. About the only thing left is the GP7200 on the A380 which is a partnership engine with GE. Other than that they have only legacy support to cchew on until eventually that fades away too.

P&W's ONLY hope of getting back in the commercial game lies in the 737 and A320 replacement. They are going to have to bend over backwards to earn the trust they squandered and they are going to have to be significantly better than GE & RR. One card they have been hiding up their sleeves is the geared turbofan. Basically, its a high bypass engine with a gearbox to reduce the fan speed to 1/3~1/2 that of the low pressure spool. This will allow the LP turbines to turn at high speeds along with the LP pressure compressor (which both, especially the turbine likes), while the fan can turn at a slow speed which is necessary to keep the tips subsonic. The challenges of convincing Boeing and/or Airbus that the gearbox will be safe, long lasting and reliable aside, the new engine needs a good core. The original plan was to use the PW6000 core. But the PW6000's lack luster performance may mean that it is not good enough.

So perhaps, we'll see a 40,000 lbs class 10:1 bypass class P&W commercial turbofan running a gearbox and the F135 core? It is after all the right size -- the F135 develops 39,400 lbs of dry thrust with the lift fan and all. And grafting a military core on a civilian engine had yielded one of the most successful engines in civil aviation history -- the CFM56. The CFM56 was basically an F101 (B-1 bomber) core with a Snecma fan.

So perhaps we'll see the F135 core driving a geared turbofan on the Boeing 797 or A390?

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I would love to see PW get back into the commercial market. The key I think is going to be making the engine 10-20 percent more efficient than the CFM56. IF PW can do it then they are back in the game.

Elite 1K Joined: Aug 01, 2006 Posts: 1003 Status: Offline

Thumper3181 wrote:

I would love to see PW get back into the commercial market. The key I think is going to be making the engine 10-20 percent more efficient than the CFM56. IF PW can do it then they are back in the game.

Actually, 20% is probably unachievable given the short flight time of the short haul single aisle jets. But 15% will be good enough and 15% is what Boeing and Airbus is calling for as sufficient justification to launch a new 100~200 seater family. They can probably squeeze out a few %s from airframe lightening and aerodynamics refinements.

The geared fan alone is worth 6~8%. Its biggest advantage is that it allows the turbine to turn much faster than the fan. Even the tri-shaft design like the Trents do not allow that because the fan and its turbines are rigidly coupled and hence the low pressure spool is ALWAYS running its turbine at horribly inefficient rpms. The tri-shaft only allows the intermediate spool to turn faster. This is much less of an advantage because the majority of the thrust and hence the majority of thrust is coming from the fan.

But, even with 6~8% from the geared fan, another 6~8% has to come from somewhere. And that somewhere is a "super core". The F135 is one such core. The PW6000 is an engine that has already failed to meet its TSFC targets by 3~4% and is mid-pack in most other areas, so trying to build a "super core" out of an evolved PW6000 design my be difficult. And worse yet, when manufacturers hear PW6000 they may already lose interest.

Well they will have a few years to develop it. I think once Boeing is done with the 787 they will turn to a 777 replacement/upgrade before they go after the 737 replacement. As for Airbus, between the Whalejet fiasco and the fitful start for the A350 they will have their hands full for the next few years as well.

Newbie Joined: May 22, 2007 Posts: 3 Status: Offline

Isn't Boeing already looking at replacing the 737 with the 737RS (RS being replacement study)?

Well if Pratt treats everyone that operates their legacy engines the way they treat the company I work for, then they have no chance. Basically their answer for everything is "we will sell you a new set of FT-8's to put in their place". Not exactly what I call customer support. They basically do not support their legacy engines anymore.

Enthusiast Joined: Oct 19, 2006 Posts: 96 Status: Offline

dwightlooi wrote:

. . . So perhaps we'll see the F135 core driving a geared turbofan on the Boeing 797 or A390?

I agree with you that Pratt & Whitney's next commercial engine will undoubtedly benefit from their F119 and F135 engine experience. However, I wouldn't expect to see a direct application of the F135 engine core - for a number of reasons.

The needs of the jet fighter world are slightly different from the commercial application. Fighter engines tend to emphasize thrust-to-weight ratio, even at the expense of fuel efficiency. Commercial airline engines tend to make the opposite trade.
All indications are that P&W's next commercial engine program will focus on a much smaller thrust engine - mandating a much smaller core.

The truly big mistake that Pratt & Whitney made some years ago, was to abandon the 737 market to GE. In the mid-1980s Pratt & Whitney's management decided to abandon the JT10D program, which would have produced a successor for the JT8D engine that then powered ALL of the world's 737's. Instead, they focused their resources on the larger, higher-thrust engine market, to launch the PW4000 family of engines.

That decision proved to be a monumental blunder. Far more of the smaller size airplanes are produced each year, than of the much larger size airplanes - making the smaller engines a far better return on investment. GE and Snecma simply stepped into the 737 market with their CFM56, which now powers ALL of the NEW 737 airliners being produced today.

Pratt & Whitney's real hurdle, as they attempt to re-enter this marketplace, surround finding a business partner that will allow them to leverage their own strengths in hot section technology, while providing the capital investment needed to develop an all-new engine. The cost of developing a new engine has become so high today, that no major corporation can afford to do it on their own. GE for example, has had a long-standing partnership with Snecma to develop and market engines like the CFM56. Rolls Royce, of course, has the Queen's purse at their disposal, to help surmount the costs of new engine development. Pratt & Whitney has traditionally partnered with Germany's MTU, on such engines as the PW2000, PW4000 and PW6000 product lines. However, MTU was recently reorganized for improved stock market resale value (short term profits), at the expense of their long term investment capabilities.

Pratt & Whitney's preferred venue, for any new commercial aircraft engine, appears to be IAE. IAE (International Aero Engines) is a joint venture between Pratt & Whitney (32.5% share), Rolls Royce (32.5%), Japanese Aero Engines (23% - itself a joint venture between Kawasaki, IHI and Mistubishi), and MTU (12%). However, with Rolls Royce focusing on their Trent 1000 (for the 787) and Trent 900 (for the A380) engines, and with MTU unable to shake loose development cash for the time being, it may be a long wait before Pratt & Whitney's geared turbofan is seen on a revenue generating airframe. Even then, it will be an engine that incorporatest F135 technology - but is unlikely to incorporate an F135 core.

Enthusiast Joined: Oct 19, 2006 Posts: 96 Status: Offline

Elliboom wrote:

Well if Pratt treats everyone that operates their legacy engines the way they treat the company I work for, then they have no chance. Basically their answer for everything is "we will sell you a new set of FT-8's to put in their place". Not exactly what I call customer support. They basically do not support their legacy engines anymore.

FT8? That's an industrial powerplant, not an aircraft engine.

The customer support groups for Pratt & Whitney's aircraft engine group (military and commercial) and industrial engine group are not connected. I could say the same thing for GE.

What engine are you currently operating? The FT4? P&W abandoned their industrial product line during the early 1980s (another bone-headed move), and attempted to re-enter the market in the early 1990s with the FT8. Unfortunately, in the intervening years, third parties began to supply virtually all of the spares for the old FT4 (1950s technology) engines, leaving P&W's industrial engine group without the financial wherewithal to really compete in that market - much less fund an adequate customer support group.

The industrial power market is largely a GE domain today. P&W is a very small player in that field. It's a different picture in the aircraft engine world.

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Civilian F135 based engine?