F-16 Reference
5th Gen Fighters
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Posted: Jan 25, 2008 - 10:48 AM
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dwightlooi wrote:
end wrote:
Yes, canard designs are absolutely suprior when other conditions are same, ie you can say, canard designs are relatively superior for any sort of fly.
I think enough has been said in this tread to show why that is not true.
In fact, a well designed unstable wing-tail is likely to be more efficient (less draggy and lighter) than an unstable canard at cruise speeds with better lift creation at high AoA and superior control authority at high altitudes. Canards tend to offer better efficiency with stable designs (think Vari/LongEZ) and improve Delta wing handling making them more usable. This allows for the use of Delta wings without too much handling penalties, but does not change the inefficiencies of the Delta wing across most of a fighter's flight envelope. If you are shooting for Mach 2~3 drag performance, a strong case can be made for Deltas, but at Mach 0.5~2 there is no significant advantages.
an uneducated statement of aerodynemics, canards take advantage more than tail layout because its longer arm of force than conventional layout for unstable design. Here is nothing to do with handling penalties. Also, in supersonic, the drage out of shock wave is much bigger than friction drag in terms of percentage of total drag.
dwightlooi wrote:
Let me put it to you this way... the F-35A is not 1.7 tons heavier (12.7 vs 11 tons) than the Typhoon because it is a wing tail. It is heavier because of its tremendous enveloped volume; it houses 8.4 tons of fuel vs 4.7 tons, it houses two 2,500 pound and two 350 lb weapon stations internally, packs more installed thrust, and that is in addition to making provisions for a STOVL variant with its lift fan and roll posts. If a similar aircraft is designed with a canard layout, it is likely to be even heavier. If you want to talk about light, the F-16 Block 60 is a mere 8.9 tons, it packs almost as much fuell than the EF Typhoon (4.5 tons vs 4.7 tons), almost as good a thrust-to-weight ratio (1.63 vs 1.67), lugs an AESA, carries internal IRST, has EW/jammers, and it is a "low tech" aluminum aircraft without all the carbon fiber composites. It is just as fast maxed out with slightly worse cruise performance due mainly to the lower dry thrust fraction of the F110-GE-132 engine.
What a rubbish post, when you say empty weight, where is the internal fuel come from??? remember the 12.7ton is empty weight! please be care of what you said, don't just post what the result you wanted to.
The start of this thread, people also think conventonal layout is superior, but finally, they changed thier mind. |
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Posted: Nov 18, 2008 - 11:40 PM
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johnwill
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Posted: Jan 25, 2008 - 04:48 PM
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Such arrogance, to actually believe you have changed anyone's mind. Oh, wait, Lockheed Martin is redesigning the F-35 based only on your arguments! They are also tearing all the tails off the F-22 and sticking them on the forward fuselage, all because of your convincing arguments. What a guy!! What an @ss! |
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Scorpion82
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Posted: Jan 25, 2008 - 09:10 PM
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| Well both layouts have their pros and cons in the end. For stealth it might be better to chose the tailplane config, for aerodynamics alone the canard layout is for sure not more worse in terms of drag or weight, more the opposite. |
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Posted: Jan 26, 2008 - 10:31 AM
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johnwill wrote:
end
Such arrogance, to actually believe you have changed anyone's mind. Oh, wait, Lockheed Martin is redesigning the F-35 based only on your arguments! They are also tearing all the tails off the F-22 and sticking them on the forward fuselage, all because of your convincing arguments. What a guy!! What an @ss!
But I like you very much since you point me arrogance. If you can point out my mistake from my post, not only favor you can gain from me but also respect.
You are not habitual me, not because my arrogance socalled by you, but I strike back heavily on someone's arrogance which take from the aircraft designed by USA.
I think I break somebody's fetish will be good for USAF to win next large-scale air-war.  |
_________________ I think therefor I am
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AeroG33k
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Posted: Jan 26, 2008 - 06:41 PM
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end wrote:
johnwill wrote:
end
Such arrogance, to actually believe you have changed anyone's mind. Oh, wait, Lockheed Martin is redesigning the F-35 based only on your arguments! They are also tearing all the tails off the F-22 and sticking them on the forward fuselage, all because of your convincing arguments. What a guy!! What an @ss!
 But I like you very much since you point me arrogance. If you can point out my mistake from my post, not only favor you can gain from me but also respect.
You are not habitual me, not because my arrogance socalled by you, but I strike back heavily on someone's arrogance which take from the aircraft designed by USA.
I think I break somebody's fetish will be good for USAF to win next large-scale air-war.
How can you even suggest these things? Several people here who have been educated in aeronautics to a level which is obviously far greater than your own have repeatedly pointed both pros and cons of canard vs. tail designs whereas all you have done is avoided response due to your 'inability to understand' (no, it wasn't him, because everybody else got it but you) or responded with fuzzy logic, insults and now even nationalism, which has little to do with the physics and dynamics of aerospace engineering, which you so persistently fail to understand. The only ignorant person is you.
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RobertCook
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Posted: Jan 26, 2008 - 06:57 PM
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checksixx wrote:
end wrote:
F-22 treated as pivate bed to rule everything. **** any action F-22 done in air show has already done by other demonstrator before, nothing new since last centry 90's early when almost two decades passed!
The main problem with you is the language barrier. The stuff you see the F-22 do at airshows has NEVER been done before by any aircraft. Time for you to study up.
Some of it, certainly--it's kind of like what the X-31 would attempt to do if it had enough power. However, after spending years arguing that the F-22's aerodynamics are not necessarily grossly inferior to those of all modern or even not-so-modern fighters because of stealth shaping, I'd say that its longtime supporters have been more than vindicated regardless of whether it demonstrates any truly novel airshow maneuvers (which it does).
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
Yeah, the F-35 has some impressive internal capacity when you combine the fuel and weapons load, a total of 11.25 tons. Thats impressive even when compared to the much larger F-22s approx 13.5 tons
It's not too surprising if we view the comparison in terms of devoting lots of additional internal volume to another engine and roughly twice the amount of intake ducting, which is empty volume; there are also a couple of additional weapon bays (small), some additional fuel, and probably more space for future expansion. Otherwise, the two aircraft are not so different in size. The difference in structural weight reflects how the F-22 is comparatively overbuilt in order to handle higher g loads while carrying around all that stuff, as well as being able to withstand supersonic conditions on a routine basis. A better comparison in terms of revealing advancements in capabilities would be the F-22 with the Flanker and its many derivatives.
Back to the real subject, likewise the comparison of the F-35 with the Typhoon is appropriate in terms of most parameters. The major differences that stand out are stealth and internal fuel, which complicate the comparison. If we leave out stealth, then the F-35 has much better payload/range performance for air-to-ground missions, but will suffer with regard to raw flight performance (it can't simply punch off the tanks); precisely how much remains to be seen. With stealth factored in, reduced payload becomes an issue for the F-35, even if/when a provision for two additional internal AAMs is developed. The F-35 always has better range.
I don't think there is much question that the F-35 will be the superior ground-pounder, so the comparison really boils down to air-to-air combat, pitting stealth with reduced armament against presumably superior flight performance (disregarding all of the recent theoretical aerodynamic arguments--there's a reason for wind tunnel and flight testing ). Given that the F-22 has to some degree become a victim of its own success because of stealth, with some people questioning whether we'll need the F-22 at all once the F-35 becomes operational, we have to ask how effective stealth really is, how effective will it be in the future, whether the F-35 is as stealthy as the F-22 regarding air-to-air combat, and whether the Typhoon really has flight performance characteristics that give it a decisive edge over its contemporary adversaries. Everything else is either picking nits over minor details or considering combinations of capabilities that can only be analyzed by envisioning realistic scenarios (as opposed to comparing the fighters directly).
dwightlooi wrote:
If you want to talk about light, the F-16 Block 60 is a mere 8.9 tons, it packs almost as much fuell than the EF Typhoon (4.5 tons vs 4.7 tons), almost as good a thrust-to-weight ratio (1.63 vs 1.67), lugs an AESA, carries internal IRST, has EW/jammers, and it is a "low tech" aluminum aircraft without all the carbon fiber composites.
It may well be that single-engine fighters are generally more efficient in terms of volume and structure. That said, it's also possible that the F-16 Block 60 would be more restricted in terms of maximum g load until it has burned off a significant portion of its fuel (i.e. the ~3000 lbs or so in the conformal tanks).
dwightlooi wrote:
It is just as fast maxed out with slightly worse cruise performance due mainly to the lower dry thrust fraction of the F110-GE-132 engine.
The F-16 Block 60 should be more efficient in terms of fuel burn rate over distance, though. As for maximum cruise speed on dry thrust, we can talk about it all we want, no problem, but has any air force seriously considered using this capability (aside from the USAF with the F-22)? I tend to doubt it. |
Last edited by RobertCook on Jan 26, 2008 - 09:48 PM; edited 3 times in total
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johnwill
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Posted: Jan 26, 2008 - 08:55 PM
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end,
Your anti-USA attitude bothers me not at all, as you can have any opinion you want. In all of your arguments concerning canard vs. tail, it seems to me you have a closed mind and believe you have all the answers. How about telling us your education and experience in these matters, to help back up your claims? The arrogance claim I made is based on your belief that the you have convinced everyone that you are indeed correct and the rest of us are idiots. To call Dwight's position "rubbish" is very disrespectful and you owe him an apology.
It is obvious to all reasonable people that both canards and tails are very effective in performing their tasks and that neither is better than the other for all applications. To believe otherwise is narrow-minded and arrogant.
If you want an example of a mistake you made, here it is :
"an uneducated statement of aerodynemics, canards take advantage more than tail layout because its longer arm of force than conventional layout for unstable design."
The diagrams Dwight posted show clearly that the F-35 tail moment arm is essentially the same as the Typhoon canard moment arm. On top of that, the tail area is MUCH larger than the canard area, so the pitching moment developed by the tail is MUCH larger than the pitching moment from the canard.
I look forward to reading more of your arguments, as I always want to learn more. But please, try to be respectful and realize that others may have valid arguments you don't agree with. |
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dwightlooi
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Posted: Jan 27, 2008 - 08:12 AM
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end wrote:
What a rubbish post, when you say empty weight, where is the internal fuel come from??? remember the 12.7ton is empty weight! please be care of what you said, don't just post what the result you wanted to.
The start of this thread, people also think conventonal layout is superior, but finally, they changed thier mind.
I was comparing the structural thrust to weight ratio of the two aircrafts -- max static thrust /empty weight. This is a better comparison of airframe performance vs say a fully fueled T/W ratio because you DO NOT have to carry the maximum load on either aircraft.
Just because an F-35 CAN carry 8.4 tons of fuel doesn't mean it has to. If it does it also means that it has more AB time available to the pilot. In any case a structual T/W comparison allows you the ability to compare airframe numbers as airframe numbers. I you add the same load to both the comparison holds true. |
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Posted: Jan 27, 2008 - 11:01 AM
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dwightlooi wrote:
end wrote:
What a rubbish post, when you say empty weight, where is the internal fuel come from??? remember the 12.7ton is empty weight! please be care of what you said, don't just post what the result you wanted to.
The start of this thread, people also think conventonal layout is superior, but finally, they changed thier mind.
I was comparing the structural thrust to weight ratio of the two aircrafts -- max static thrust /empty weight. This is a better comparison of airframe performance vs say a fully fueled T/W ratio because you DO NOT have to carry the maximum load on either aircraft.
Just because an F-35 CAN carry 8.4 tons of fuel doesn't mean it has to. If it does it also means that it has more AB time available to the pilot. In any case a structual T/W comparison allows you the ability to compare airframe numbers as airframe numbers. I you add the same load to both the comparison holds true.
dwightlooi:
Factually, I do know what you mean.What you want to expressed is that internal fuel F-35 loaded is much more than other aircaft, almost double than others, therefore the empty weight of F-35 is reasonable, because more structure is designed to be internal tank. Is this your opnion?
Indeed, I also appreciate the structure of F-35, 8-9 ton internal fuel really is impressive. But as you said, this doesn't mean it has to always load fully, so the overweight problem still is excistence. This is what I worried about.  |
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dwightlooi
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Posted: Jan 27, 2008 - 11:29 AM
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end wrote:
Factually, I do know what you mean.What you want to expressed is that internal fuel F-35 loaded is much more than other aircaft, almost double than others, therefore the empty weight of F-35 is reasonable, because more structure is designed to be internal tank. Is this your opnion?
Indeed, I also appreciate the structure of F-35, 8-9 ton internal fuel really is impressive. But as you said, this doesn't mean it has to always load fully, so the overweight problem still is excistence. This is what I worried about.
Well, let me put it this way. The F-35 is about 1.7 tons heavier than the Typhoon and packs about 6% more thrust. If you load it with the Typhoon's maximum fuel load of about 4.7 tons, it is still 1.7 tons heavier than the Typhoon and it still packs 6% more thrust.
As far as T/W ratios are concerned the difference actually narrows the higher the equivalent load to put on both aircrafts. At empty it is 1.54 vs 1.67. With 4.7 tons of fuel it is 1.12 vs 1.17. At the F-35's full internal load (8.4 tons fuel + 2.8 tons weapons), it is 0.82 vs 0.83. Of course, in the last case the Typhoon is additionally hampered by the fact that it is carrying a whopping 6.5 tons (14,300 lbs) worth of weapons and fuel externally whereas the F-35 is completely clean aerodynamically. |
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viper1234
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Posted: Jan 27, 2008 - 11:30 AM
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Hot off the press from DefenceNews
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=3334533&C=europe
These additional costs are significant. Check my calculations, but for the UK alone it appears that the additional charges will add over $35 million to the cost per jet (232 as total procurement number).
These additional charges could have profound implications to the long term development of the Typhoon and will undoubtedly effect F-35 procurement (if the report is accurate). |
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end
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Posted: Jan 27, 2008 - 11:36 AM
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AeroG33k wrote:
end wrote:
johnwill wrote:
end
Such arrogance, to actually believe you have changed anyone's mind. Oh, wait, Lockheed Martin is redesigning the F-35 based only on your arguments! They are also tearing all the tails off the F-22 and sticking them on the forward fuselage, all because of your convincing arguments. What a guy!! What an @ss!
 But I like you very much since you point me arrogance. If you can point out my mistake from my post, not only favor you can gain from me but also respect.
You are not habitual me, not because my arrogance socalled by you, but I strike back heavily on someone's arrogance which take from the aircraft designed by USA.
I think I break somebody's fetish will be good for USAF to win next large-scale air-war.
How can you even suggest these things? Several people here who have been educated in aeronautics to a level which is obviously far greater than your own have repeatedly pointed both pros and cons of canard vs. tail designs whereas all you have done is avoided response due to your 'inability to understand' (no, it wasn't him, because everybody else got it but you) or responded with fuzzy logic, insults and now even nationalism, which has little to do with the physics and dynamics of aerospace engineering, which you so persistently fail to understand. The only ignorant person is you.
okok
I declare F-22 is unvincible, unbeatable, unconquerable and unrivalled, forever! you are great, you r strong, you r powerful, I am so scared, bye bye. |
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Scorpion82
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Posted: Jan 27, 2008 - 11:52 AM
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dwightlooi wrote:
As far as T/W ratios are concerned the difference actually narrows the higher the equivalent load to put on both aircrafts. At empty it is 1.54 vs 1.67. With 4.7 tons of fuel it is 1.12 vs 1.17. At the F-35's full internal load (8.4 tons fuel + 2.8 tons weapons), it is 0.82 vs 0.83. Of course, in the last case the Typhoon is additionally hampered by the fact that it is carrying a whopping 6.5 tons (14,300 lbs) worth of weapons and fuel externally whereas the F-35 is completely clean aerodynamically.
I think this comparison is not really suitable. 6.5 t payload for Typhoon and 2.8 t payload for F-35 to make a point there is no huge difference in TWR isn't valid. Take compareable loads. |
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dwightlooi
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Posted: Jan 27, 2008 - 05:15 PM
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Scorpion82 wrote:
dwightlooi wrote:
As far as T/W ratios are concerned the difference actually narrows the higher the equivalent load to put on both aircrafts. At empty it is 1.54 vs 1.67. With 4.7 tons of fuel it is 1.12 vs 1.17. At the F-35's full internal load (8.4 tons fuel + 2.8 tons weapons), it is 0.82 vs 0.83. Of course, in the last case the Typhoon is additionally hampered by the fact that it is carrying a whopping 6.5 tons (14,300 lbs) worth of weapons and fuel externally whereas the F-35 is completely clean aerodynamically.
I think this comparison is not really suitable. 6.5 t payload for Typhoon and 2.8 t payload for F-35 to make a point there is no huge difference in TWR isn't valid. Take compareable loads.
The loads are identical in all of the above cases, making it a perfectly fair and suitable comparison. The ONLY thing biased about it is that, for simplicity sake, I did not add tank weight and pylon weight to the Typhoon's numbers in the last case even though these are undoubtedly present.
No fuel, no ordnance in both -- 1.54 (F-35) vs 1.67 (EF)
4.7 tons fuel, no ordnance in both -- 1.12 (F-35) vs 1.17 (EF)
8.4 tons fuel, 2.8 tons ordnance in both (with external carriage if necessary) -- 0.82 (F-35) vs 0.83 (EF)
What is less suitable is comparing an F-35 with 8.4 tons of fuel and a Typhoon with 4.7 tons of gas -- their respective internal fuel load. That is an unequal load; you can put only 4.7 tons of gas in an F-35 if you want.
In any case I do not see that F-35 as being overweight even if they did not reach the unrealistically ambitious goal of a 12 tons empty weight target. As it currently stands, the F-35 has roughly the same thrust to air frame weight ratio as a Rafale. Pretty darn impressive considering the tremendous enveloped volume compared to the willowy Rafale. |
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AeroG33k
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Posted: Jan 27, 2008 - 06:32 PM
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end wrote:
AeroG33k wrote:
end wrote:
johnwill wrote:
end
Such arrogance, to actually believe you have changed anyone's mind. Oh, wait, Lockheed Martin is redesigning the F-35 based only on your arguments! They are also tearing all the tails off the F-22 and sticking them on the forward fuselage, all because of your convincing arguments. What a guy!! What an @ss!
 But I like you very much since you point me arrogance. If you can point out my mistake from my post, not only favor you can gain from me but also respect.
You are not habitual me, not because my arrogance socalled by you, but I strike back heavily on someone's arrogance which take from the aircraft designed by USA.
I think I break somebody's fetish will be good for USAF to win next large-scale air-war.
How can you even suggest these things? Several people here who have been educated in aeronautics to a level which is obviously far greater than your own have repeatedly pointed both pros and cons of canard vs. tail designs whereas all you have done is avoided response due to your 'inability to understand' (no, it wasn't him, because everybody else got it but you) or responded with fuzzy logic, insults and now even nationalism, which has little to do with the physics and dynamics of aerospace engineering, which you so persistently fail to understand. The only ignorant person is you.
okok
I declare F-22 is unvincible, unbeatable, unconquerable and unrivalled, forever! you are great, you r strong, you r powerful, I am so scared, bye bye.
What I said had nothing to do with the F-22 (which is an overpriced relic of the cold war for all I care, but an impressive fighter regardless) but everything to do with your attitude and the fact that you think you know much more than you actually do. |
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