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Document title: F-35 vs Eurofighter Typhoon - F-16.net - The Ultimate F-16 Reference
Original URL: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-8571-start-165-sid-9117771ec076016afc51f4c84876d5ee.html
Printed on: 18 November 2008

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

F-35 vs Eurofighter Typhoon



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PostPosted: Jan 22, 2008 - 10:41 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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dwightlooi wrote:
end wrote:

No, wing area is good thing for any aircraft, the key is what profile will be and how integrated with fuslage. Generally, wing area should be as large as possible, if selse thing are totally same.

Really? Consider the following picture. Not that either represents a good aircraft design. But it does show that Wing Area tells you VERY LITTLE about how much actual "wing" there is, and much less about how much actual lift there is for the entire aircraft itself. See there problem? Wing area is a USELESS number except when used in conjunction with lift-coefficients, drag-coefficients, etc which are dimensionless values which need a standardized reference area. Together they tell you something. Alone, wing area tells you jack squat.


I am suspicious of your comprehence in terms of your post above! I've repeatly emphasised preconditins should/must be same! you don't see the wing crossed fuslage by your drawing do you? Do you understand how to compare two things? Please review the last sentence I written.

dwightlooi wrote:
end wrote:

YES, So you can see that, which trending to zero trim on unstable conventional aircraft is lift, which trends to zero trim on unstable canard aircraft is drag. What's keypoint here? It is reversed force. upward force out of tailplan on conventional aircraft is reduced, whereas downward force out of canard on foreplan aircraft is reduced, both of two kind of force are reduced, but the force of reversed direction is the very point.
If another conditions are absolutely same, then you can find out delta wing on canard layout always bigger than conventional layout, which means more lift.

So... the unstable wing tail is lift-lift at subsonic crusie, the canard is downforce-lift. The unstable wing-tail and the unstable canard are both zerolift-lift at higher speeds. And you are saying the unstable canard is more efficient?

Please review what I said completely, when you compare with canard-delta wing with tail-delta wing, if other conditions are exactly same, yes, they are same. But the precondition here is not same as I pointed out: the area of delta wing coupled with canard always be larger than that area of wing coupled with tailplan on equivalent aircraft.
dwightlooi wrote:

The other thing is that canard is canard and delta is delta. You can put a tail on a delta or a canard on a non-delta wing. The problem with deltas is that while they have better wave drag characteristics at say Mach 2.5, they do not exhibit significant advantages at typical fighter flight envelopes (Mach 0.5 through Mach 2.0). Pound for pound or area for area they are inferior wings, so you need bigger delta wings compared to wings with less sweep and chord for the same desired lift and maneuvering performance. Deltas fell out of favor after the 60s because of that... way before FBW, way before stealth, way before CFD, way before any of that.

Interesting! So what the wing shape of Raptor? Do you call that rectangle wing? Exclamation Question

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PostPosted: Jan 22, 2008 - 10:43 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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AeroG33k wrote:
The stability argument is getting a bit hard to follow, but I'll chime in and maybe clear some things up...or add to the confusion Wink . I think what end needs to understand is that a relaxed stability design is still trimmed neutrally in level flight, but this needs to happen dynamically with relatively small control surface adjustments in response to gusts, not a permanent trim, or else the aircraft will oscillate around a point with increasing amplitude (hence the need for fbw/fcc). It's better to think of this as artificial stability rather than instability. In a turn, a canard will produce up force since it's ahead of the Cg/Cl, which generally results in better instantaneous turn performance compared to a conventional tail, which will produce downforce. As such a canard will inherently add to the instability, but at the price of lowering the efficiency of the main wing (since the canard stalls before the main wing, the wing never reaches it's max Cl and operates in the downwash of the canard)...of course, a canard is also beneficial for that reason in low speed maneuvers and produces vortexes over the wing root (you can see on the Eurofighter this effect is reinforced by a dogtooth vortex generator on the leading edge at the same distance as the canard span). But due to the lower efficiency, the main wing needs to be larger and stronger. A larger wing has some advantages like fuel volume and such, but keep in mind that wing efficiency is another factor, not just area. As with anything else in aerospace engineering, it's a design trade-off that depends on what exactly is needed in terms of perfomance goals. Neither design is inherently 'better' and it depends much on how it interacts with the rest of the airframe. A canard is more inherently instable (it would be harder to place a canard of a naturally stable aircraft, I think) but both canard and tailplanes will work on an artificially stabilized design.

checksixx wrote:

Please don't ever again quote Wiki as your own...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canard_(aeronautics)

I saw it.
Chime in more confusion is what he want to do. Voici what we called parti pris! This is not something particularly complicated but an opinion formed beforehand without adequate evidence and illation. F-22 treated as pivate bed to rule everything. **** any action F-22 done in air show has already done by other demonstrator before, nothing new since last centry 90's early when almost two decades passed! please don't make yourself in own circle.

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sprstdlyscottsmn
PostPosted: Jan 22, 2008 - 12:33 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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I think what he ment about deltas falling out of favor was PURE deltas, which is fairly true. Mirage 2000 is the only operating pure delta I know of, Personally I am a bit of a fan of the Canard Delta Design, or canard designs in general. Even F-16 wing is concidered a clipped delta with a tail.

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dwightlooi
PostPosted: Jan 22, 2008 - 03:31 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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end wrote:

I am suspicious of your comprehence in terms of your post above! I've repeatly emphasised preconditins should/must be same! you don't see the wing crossed fuslage by your drawing do you? Do you understand how to compare two things? Please review the last sentence I written.


No, it is very simple. The picture illustrates the DEFINITION of "Wing Area". Wing Area is NOT the size of the wing. Wing Area is the size of the area formed by extending the leading and trailing edges of the wing to the centerline -- even if this area includes a lot of fuselage area or empty space. PERIOD.

This is the "wing area" you get off a specification of an aircraft. This is what 460 sq-ft on an F-35 or 538 sq-ft on a Typhoon refers to. It is a number which is useless on its own at gauging how much lift is available to an aircraft under any circumstance. It is a reference area that is multiplied by the various coefficients such as lift coefficient and drag coefficients. It really doesn't matter how big or small the wing area is as long as its definition is known and unambiguous. The coefficients will adjust and when combined reflect the flight properties of the airframe.

Let me show you another picture...



Now... do you see why saying that Aircraft A has a greater wing area and therefore has more lift than Aircraft B is not a valid statement?
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dwightlooi
PostPosted: Jan 22, 2008 - 03:37 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
I think what he ment about deltas falling out of favor was PURE deltas, which is fairly true. Mirage 2000 is the only operating pure delta I know of, Personally I am a bit of a fan of the Canard Delta Design, or canard designs in general. Even F-16 wing is concidered a clipped delta with a tail.


The addition of a canard does not change the fact that the Delta Wing is an inferior lifting device compared to a wing with less sweep, less chord and greater span across the majority of the flight envelope of a typical supersonic jet fighter.

What the canard does is make the somewhat deplorable handling characteristics of a Delta wing somewhat amicable. However, it has not been shown that a Canard-Delta is aerodynamically superior to an unstable Wing-tail design.
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ACMIguy
PostPosted: Jan 22, 2008 - 04:17 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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The argument around aerodynamic design seems to have missed a very important point made by the Virginia Tech paper. http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~mason/Mason_f/canardsS03.pdf
“The selection of a canard vs. a tail is both configuration and mission dependent.”
Page 11
Pages 29-30 give the list of advantages and disadvantages of canards.

Historically the Delta's have been great interceptors F-102,F-106, Mirage and so on, but not nibble dog fighters. Again the Virgina Tech paper finding on page 11 "configuration and mission dependent" I think defines this issue.

Taking all factors out except the aircraft, that means same pilot, same non-support i.e. AWACS, the F-35 should have the advantage by stealth technology rather than aerodynamics.
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AeroG33k
PostPosted: Jan 22, 2008 - 06:30 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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ACMIguy wrote:
The argument around aerodynamic design seems to have missed a very important point made by the Virginia Tech paper. http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~mason/Mason_f/canardsS03.pdf
“The selection of a canard vs. a tail is both configuration and mission dependent.”
Page 11
Pages 29-30 give the list of advantages and disadvantages of canards.

Historically the Delta's have been great interceptors F-102,F-106, Mirage and so on, but not nibble dog fighters. Again the Virgina Tech paper finding on page 11 "configuration and mission dependent" I think defines this issue.



That was the point I was trying to make Thumb Although one may add that a canard *generally* adds somewhat to the maneuverability of delta wing designs....


end wrote:
I saw it.
Chime in more confusion is what he want to do. Voici what we called parti pris! This is not something particularly complicated but an opinion formed beforehand without adequate evidence and illation. F-22 treated as pivate bed to rule everything. **** any action F-22 done in air show has already done by other demonstrator before, nothing new since last centry 90's early when almost two decades passed! please don't make yourself in own circle.


Ok...what's your point? Rolling Eyes Canard designs are always superior? Big wings are always superior? An entire professional engineering design team is 'wrong' in their solution? It seems like no matter what is said you disagree... You seem to think you have it all figured out but most of your posts seem to oversimplify things by quite a bit. dwight is right, it takes a LOT more than basic wing area and sweep analysis and you completely ignore wing efficiency, fuselage lift, vortex lift etc....
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PostPosted: Jan 22, 2008 - 08:48 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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It will be interesting to see what Russia come up with for the PAK-FA Wing Design?
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PostPosted: Jan 22, 2008 - 10:51 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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dwightlooi wrote:
end wrote:

I am suspicious of your comprehence in terms of your post above! I've repeatly emphasised preconditins should/must be same! you don't see the wing crossed fuslage by your drawing do you? Do you understand how to compare two things? Please review the last sentence I written.


This is the "wing area" you get off a specification of an aircraft. This is what 460 sq-ft on an F-35 or 538 sq-ft on a Typhoon refers to.


So you can see the aircradt with equal weight has different wing area, the wing area on canard layout is always larger than conventional layout, when the empty weight of those aircraft are equivalent. Wink

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PostPosted: Jan 22, 2008 - 10:54 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Corsair1963 wrote:
It will be interesting to see what Russia come up with for the PAK-FA Wing Design?


I remember seeing a large elliptical wing root with small trapezoidal wings on a concept drawing a while ago, sort of like a huge leading edge extension. Maybe they were trying to get the best of both worlds with delta-like vortex lift at the root and better maneuverability/stall performance on the edges..let me see if I can find it...

EDIT: Google is my friend Rolling Eyes



Other designs are more F-22-like, but I'm not sure how official they are. They seem to have abandoned the FSW, but an MFI-like layout could still happen. I guess we'll have to wait and see (if this thing ever works out...) Confused


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PostPosted: Jan 22, 2008 - 10:56 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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AeroG33k wrote:
Ok...what's your point? Rolling Eyes Canard designs are always superior? Big wings are always superior? An entire professional engineering design team is 'wrong' in their solution? It seems like no matter what is said you disagree... You seem to think you have it all figured out but most of your posts seem to oversimplify things by quite a bit. dwight is right, it takes a LOT more than basic wing area and sweep analysis and you completely ignore wing efficiency, fuselage lift, vortex lift etc....


Yes, canard designs are absolutely suprior when other conditions are same, ie you can say, canard designs are relatively superior for any sort of fly.

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PostPosted: Jan 23, 2008 - 01:51 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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end wrote:
I saw it.
Chime in more confusion is what he want to do. Voici what we called parti pris! This is not something particularly complicated but an opinion formed beforehand without adequate evidence and illation. F-22 treated as pivate bed to rule everything. **** any action F-22 done in air show has already done by other demonstrator before, nothing new since last centry 90's early when almost two decades passed! please don't make yourself in own circle.


The main problem with you is the language barrier. The stuff you see the F-22 do at airshows has NEVER been done before by any aircraft. Time for you to study up.
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PostPosted: Jan 23, 2008 - 05:25 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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end wrote:

So you can see the aircradt with equal weight has different wing area, the wing area on canard layout is always larger than conventional layout, when the empty weight of those aircraft are equivalent. Wink


That, we know, is rubbish. You can take the same wing on the Typhoon, remove the canard and put a tail on it. And the wing area is the same. That in and of itself proves the fallacy of this statement.
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PostPosted: Jan 23, 2008 - 05:38 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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end wrote:

Yes, canard designs are absolutely suprior when other conditions are same, ie you can say, canard designs are relatively superior for any sort of fly.


I think enough has been said in this tread to show why that is not true.

In fact, a well designed unstable wing-tail is likely to be more efficient (less draggy and lighter) than an unstable canard at cruise speeds with better lift creation at high AoA and superior control authority at high altitudes. Canards tend to offer better efficiency with stable designs (think Vari/LongEZ) and improve Delta wing handling making them more usable. This allows for the use of Delta wings without too much handling penalties, but does not change the inefficiencies of the Delta wing across most of a fighter's flight envelope. If you are shooting for Mach 2~3 drag performance, a strong case can be made for Deltas, but at Mach 0.5~2 there is no significant advantages.

Let me put it to you this way... the F-35A is not 1.7 tons heavier (12.7 vs 11 tons) than the Typhoon because it is a wing tail. It is heavier because of its tremendous enveloped volume; it houses 8.4 tons of fuel vs 4.7 tons, it houses two 2,500 pound and two 350 lb weapon stations internally, packs more installed thrust, and that is in addition to making provisions for a STOVL variant with its lift fan and roll posts. If a similar aircraft is designed with a canard layout, it is likely to be even heavier. If you want to talk about light, the F-16 Block 60 is a mere 8.9 tons, it packs almost as much fuell than the EF Typhoon (4.5 tons vs 4.7 tons), almost as good a thrust-to-weight ratio (1.63 vs 1.67), lugs an AESA, carries internal IRST, has EW/jammers, and it is a "low tech" aluminum aircraft without all the carbon fiber composites. It is just as fast maxed out with slightly worse cruise performance due mainly to the lower dry thrust fraction of the F110-GE-132 engine.


Last edited by dwightlooi on Jan 23, 2008 - 07:00 AM; edited 5 times in total
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sprstdlyscottsmn
PostPosted: Jan 23, 2008 - 06:32 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Yeah, the F-35 has some impressive internal capacity when you combine the fuel and weapons load, a total of 11.25 tons. Thats impressive even when compared to the much larger F-22s approx 13.5 tons

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