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Document title: Interesting "thrashing" of the Typhoon - F-16.net - The Ultimate F-16 Reference
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Printed on: 18 November 2008

Forum: F-22A Raptor

Interesting "thrashing" of the Typhoon



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SpeakTheTruth
PostPosted: Jun 10, 2007 - 02:12 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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These graphs do vary a lot as, like you said, it is very dependant on the airframe geometry. Yes Cd is not the drag force, but Cd is better for comparisons, modeling and analysis as it is dimensionless.

Also on your graph, I'm guessing that is just the Cd for the wing, what about the fuselage, tail, external stores and any other bits that stick out of the aircraft? Wouldn't the Typhoon have a lower Cd than that of the F-15 due to the delta wing configuration?

Also if the F-15 could push M1.2 max then my guess is its speed would be varying, would it not be constantly approaching the mach 1 barrier resulting in very high drag?

(Btw these aren't rhetorical questions, they are genuine questions for people to answer)
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dwightlooi
PostPosted: Jun 10, 2007 - 01:29 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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SpeakTheTruth wrote:
These graphs do vary a lot as, like you said, it is very dependant on the airframe geometry. Yes Cd is not the drag force, but Cd is better for comparisons, modeling and analysis as it is dimensionless.

Also on your graph, I'm guessing that is just the Cd for the wing, what about the fuselage, tail, external stores and any other bits that stick out of the aircraft? Wouldn't the Typhoon have a lower Cd than that of the F-15 due to the delta wing configuration?

Also if the F-15 could push M1.2 max then my guess is its speed would be varying, would it not be constantly approaching the mach 1 barrier resulting in very high drag?

(Btw these aren't rhetorical questions, they are genuine questions for people to answer)


Of course you are right in that its the entire aircraft that counts. However...

(1) In general, the Sonic Drag Spike is very narrow -- ~ Mach 0.05~0.1 not Mach 0.3~0.4 wide.

(2) Once you are past that spike, even if Cd decreases with speed, Drag will increase with speed. This is because the Cd is not going to increase or decrease exponentially, whereas Velocity^2 will always increase exponentially. In fact most of the time Cd increases or decreases are very marginal and gentle past the sonic spike (or before it).

(3) Delta wing or not, what really matters when it comes to the wing's plan form is the leading edge sweep and the distance the wing is from the nose. I do not see a huge difference here. Nor should there be given that F-15 is an airframe that can reach Mach 2.5 on reheat so it cannot be very draggy at supersonic speeds. The whole supercruise thing is not likely to be an issue with the dynamic thrust of the engines at maximum millitary thrust and at the speeds concerned.
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SpeakTheTruth
PostPosted: Jun 10, 2007 - 11:43 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Dwightlooi wrote:
(2) Once you are past that spike, even if Cd decreases with speed, Drag will increase with speed. This is because the Cd is not going to increase or decrease exponentially, whereas Velocity^2 will always increase exponentially. In fact most of the time Cd increases or decreases are very marginal and gentle past the sonic spike (or before it).


I see what your saying here and your absolutely right, a change in Cd past the transonic spike is almost linear. I was under the impression that the transonic spike was a lot wider as I have seen a few graphs showing this although they were probably not for fighter aircraft. Thanks for your explanation
Dwightlooi wrote:

(3) Delta wing or not, what really matters when it comes to the wing's plan form is the leading edge sweep and the distance the wing is from the nose. I do not see a huge difference here. Nor should there be given that F-15 is an airframe that can reach Mach 2.5 on reheat so it cannot be very draggy at supersonic speeds. The whole supercruise thing is not likely to be an issue with the dynamic thrust of the engines at maximum millitary thrust and at the speeds concerned.


But with a delta wing there is a larger sweep angle. Comparing the drawing of the Typhoon with that of the F-15 you can see by eye that there is a difference. The larger the sweep angle in super-sonic flight, the faster you can go before the mach cone meets your leading edges. This is one of the main advantages of using a delta wing. The F-15 is a very aerodynamically efficient airframe, and its excellent thrust allows it to overcome the drag force as those high speeds, but I'd say the Cd(total) of the Tiffy is lower than that of the F-15.

Another thing, those comparison drawings you did where you compared two halves of two different aircraft were really good. Did you do one for the Tiffy and F-15?
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Maks
PostPosted: Jun 10, 2007 - 12:40 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Hi,

are there any figure around for thrust (with and without afterburner) and drag vs. speed around. This would be very interesting - and in addition the difference would give an indication of possible acceleration.
Maybe some data on older designs?
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dwightlooi
PostPosted: Jun 10, 2007 - 01:37 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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SpeakTheTruth wrote:

But with a delta wing there is a larger sweep angle. Comparing the drawing of the Typhoon with that of the F-15 you can see by eye that there is a difference. The larger the sweep angle in super-sonic flight, the faster you can go before the mach cone meets your leading edges. This is one of the main advantages of using a delta wing. The F-15 is a very aerodynamically efficient airframe, and its excellent thrust allows it to overcome the drag force as those high speeds, but I'd say the Cd(total) of the Tiffy is lower than that of the F-15.

Another thing, those comparison drawings you did where you compared two halves of two different aircraft were really good. Did you do one for the Tiffy and F-15?


The delta or delta-canard makes it easier to have a more acute sweep angles on the main wing, but you can also have pretty acute angles without a delta configuration. Take the Mig-21 for instance, that is a wing-tail design with just as much sweep as the Typhoon.



In the case of the F-15 vs the Typhoon, the angle between the nose and the wing tip is 24.5 degrees from the center line in both cases. In otherwords, both aircraft has their wings tucked within their nose shock cones up to ~Mach 2.41. The Typhoon's canards and wing tip pods do stick out a little bit, but it shouldn't matter much. As far as the wing sweep is concerned, the F-15 is 45 degrees back, the Typhoon is 52 degrees back. The Mach angle corresponding to these are Mach 1.41 and Mach 1.62 respectively. Basically, based simply on 2D plan form analysis, there shouldn't be any advantage either way up to Mach 1.4 or thereabouts, and probably not significantly up to ~ Mach 2.4.

But as you can see, the Typhoon is a much SMALLER jet. It also has a much smaller frontal section. In otherwords, even if Cd is the same (which I am sure it won't be) the Typhoon is going to have lower actual drag simply based on its smaller size.

The biggest difference I believe is in the engines. The EJ200 is about 90kN wet and 60kN dry. Thats about 66.6% of its maximum thrust available dry. The F-15's F100-PW-220 is 111kN wet, 65kN dry -- thats only 58.5% available dry. This is all sea level static of course and does not directly reflect dynamic thrust, but it does show that the EJ200 is designed with a higher dry thrust density in mind. Therein, probably lies the biggest difference between the two platforms. This is the -220 engine of the typical USAF F-15C, the -229 is 129kN, but that is only found on the F-15Es and some export F-15s.
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Neotopia
PostPosted: Jun 10, 2007 - 07:29 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Also, being smaller isn't an advantage wrt drag. All things being equal a smaller plane will have larger relative sectional density (and therefore more drag) because of the relationship between frontal area and volume(and therefore by extension, mass).

i.e. take two cubes one with a volume of 27v-units and one with 8 v-units.
The density is such that one one v-unit equals one m-unit of mass.

The dimensions of the cubes will be 2x2x2, and 3x3x3, therfore the frontal areas will be 2x2(4) and 3x3(9)

27/9 = 3 sectional density of larger cube
8/4 = 2 sectional density of smaller cube

Just by being a little more than 3 times the mass, the larger cube has a natural 50% increase in sectional density.

The general rule is that if you're double the size you get about 23% more sectional density just by being larger.

This is the reason why the Concord could supercruise at mach 2.
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LmRaptor
PostPosted: Jun 10, 2007 - 09:26 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Thanks a lot for the welcome guys. With regard to the Mach 1.5 figure I quoted earlier. That is the jets absolute max(on current engines) with no externals at all and half a tank of internal fuel. Agreed on the engines DL. EJ200 is a fantastic engine by all accounts.

Using paint and your picture DL, I worked out the area of the 2 wings on the Typhoon; the figure I calculated was far off from the published 50m2 wing area. It was around 34.745m2, and adding the canards wont push this up by much either, still far off from the 50m2. Wonder why? Perhaps a mistake in my maths.
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johnwill
PostPosted: Jun 10, 2007 - 10:29 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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LmRaptor, wing REFERENCE area (50 m^2) includes all area (including fuselage) within the wing leading edge and trailing edge extended to the airplane centerline. Your measured "wing only" area sounds about right. That is why comparing wing reference area of two different airplanes is meaningless. For that matter, comparing ANY aero coefficient between two different airplanes is equally meaningless. Go ahead and compare drag, but not drag coefficient, for example.

That delta wing, tucked back out of the mach cone is fine for cruise, but maneuvering is another story. Deltas generally have a poorer L/D slope as AoA increases. So relative to cruise drag, the delta will have higher drag at maneuvering AoA than a wing with less sweep. That hurts sustained g performance, but not instantaneous g.

The MiG-21 has just as much sweep as a delta Typhoon because it is a delta (a tailed delta). The EE Lightning also had (I think) 60 deg sweep, but was not a delta.

Welcome to the forum. Hope to see many posts from you.
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SpeakTheTruth
PostPosted: Jun 10, 2007 - 11:40 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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johnwill wrote:
LmRaptor, wing REFERENCE area (50 m^2) includes all area (including fuselage) within the wing leading edge and trailing edge extended to the airplane centerline. Your measured "wing only" area sounds about right. That is why comparing wing reference area of two different airplanes is meaningless. For that matter, comparing ANY aero coefficient between two different airplanes is equally meaningless. Go ahead and compare drag, but not drag coefficient, for example.


Comparing coefficients is in fact usually a better way of analysing two aircraft as they are dimensionless parameters. For example lets compare two aircraft that have the same surface area but different geometry. Drag force is; Fd=0.5*(fluid density)*(velocity)^2*area*Cd. Now these aircraft are cruising at the same altitude and the same speed so which one is going to have the higher drag force? The one with the higher Cd (drag coefficient), as the other parameters are the same. Remember Cd is a ratio of real drag and drag for the idealised shape, so a decrease in Cd results in a decrease in drag. So Cd is a very important parameter and very good for comparisons.

johnwill wrote:
That delta wing, tucked back out of the mach cone is fine for cruise, but maneuvering is another story. Deltas generally have a poorer L/D slope as AoA increases. So relative to cruise drag, the delta will have higher drag at maneuvering AoA than a wing with less sweep. That hurts sustained g performance, but not instantaneous g.


At low speeds typical Delta wing aircraft suffer with maneuverability and angle of attack. The Tiffy has overcome these problems and shows exceptional low speed maneuverability and not to mention it is still capable of STOL. High speeds is where the delta wing really performs, and the tiffy does just that.
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johnwill
PostPosted: Jun 11, 2007 - 01:03 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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As far as comparing coefficients between two different airplanes, when did you ever see two airplanes with the same reference area? Or the same reference length? Never! So you simply cannot compare coefficients with any meaningful results. If you are talking about advanced design studies of hypothetical airplanes, you are right. I am speaking of real airplanes, in service today.

We agree on the delta maneuverability question. I should have said at higher AoA (read low-medium airspeed) sustained g capability suffers, which is not the same as "maneuverability" to use your word. You may point the Tiffy very quickly on the first turn (canards!), but at the sacrifice of considerable speed, so you'd best make that first shot count. Yes, at high speed (low AoA) it really performs, no question. And two very powerful engines help overcome the sustained g problem. But the fact remains that a delta is not as good as a wing with less sweep at lower speed sustained g. That is why the only deltas in USAF were interceptors (F-102, F-106) and a bomber (B-58).
Edited to add SR-71 and XB-70.


Last edited by johnwill on Jun 11, 2007 - 05:04 AM; edited 1 time in total
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dwightlooi
PostPosted: Jun 11, 2007 - 01:28 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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johnwill wrote:
As far as comparing coefficients between two different airplanes, when did you ever see two airplanes with the same reference area? Or the same reference length? Never! So you simply cannot compare coefficients with any meaningful results. If you are talking about advanced design studies of hypothetical airplanes, you are right. I am speaking of real airplanes, in service today.

We agree on the delta maneuverability question. I should have said at higher AoA (read low-medium airspeed) sustained g capability suffers, which is not the same as "maneuverability" to use your word. You may point the Tiffy very quickly on the first turn (canards!), but at the sacrifice of considerable speed, so you'd best make that first shot count. Yes, at high speed (low AoA) it really performs, no question. And two very powerful engines help overcome the sustained g problem. But the fact remains that a delta is not as good as a wing with less sweep at lower speed sustained g. That is why the only deltas in USAF were interceptors (F-102, F-106) and a bomber (B-5Cool.


I don't think it is really so much a "delta" characteristic, but rather a characteristic of a wide-chord, short-span, wing compared to a narrower-chord, long-span, wing.
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Raptor_One
PostPosted: Jun 11, 2007 - 03:00 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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dwightlooi wrote:

I don't think it is really so much a "delta" characteristic, but rather a characteristic of a wide-chord, short-span, wing compared to a narrower-chord, long-span, wing.


No, it's the shape. CL vs. CD for a true "delta" wing is going to look good for low values of CL, but terrible for high values. Or in other words, CD will be good for low CL and bad for high CL. Change the shape of the wing to something where the wing tips are not points of a triangle and you'll get different behavior. Some delta wing shapes wouldn't make sense of course. You wouldn't, for example, make a delta wing with a 45 degree sweep. But if you did, it would still be pretty bad at high AoA I think. Hehehe.
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dwightlooi
PostPosted: Jun 11, 2007 - 03:09 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Raptor_One wrote:
dwightlooi wrote:

I don't think it is really so much a "delta" characteristic, but rather a characteristic of a wide-chord, short-span, wing compared to a narrower-chord, long-span, wing.


No, it's the shape. CL vs. CD for a true "delta" wing is going to look good for low values of CL, but terrible for high values. Or in other words, CD will be good for low CL and bad for high CL. Change the shape of the wing to something where the wing tips are not points of a triangle and you'll get different behavior. Some delta wing shapes wouldn't make sense of course. You wouldn't, for example, make a delta wing with a 45 degree sweep. But if you did, it would still be pretty bad at high AoA I think. Hehehe.


Actually, I think ther may be some Deltas with ~45 degree sweep. Most are ~50 degrees though. I am talking about leading edge sweep here. Sometimes the wing sweep measure based on the line that is 1/3 chord from leading to trailing edge.
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johnwill
PostPosted: Jun 11, 2007 - 03:12 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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I don't know of any specific examples, but I suspect if you take a 60 deg delta of span Y and chord X, then convert the same area to a diamond wing (YF-23) span Y and chord X, the diamond wing (30 deg sweep) will be superior at anything over about 8-10 deg AoA. Understand, this is just a semi-WAG, so don't beat me up too much over it.
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snypa777
PostPosted: Jun 11, 2007 - 08:57 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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A question if you will all bear with me, thinking of a delta wing, what does a "cranked" delta do for a pure delta winged aircraft? The Vulcan bomber originally had a pure delta wing which the designers cranked to alleviate wing flutter. How will a cranked delta wing affect low speed maneuverability, if at all?

Thanks in advance!

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