Forum: Military Aircraft of the Cold War

Now, I always promised myself I would never get into these XX vs. XX debates because they are pointless when it involves non experts (like me), but since I kinda got myself into one, I just wanted some possible insights from experts here just so I know I'm not going crazy Very Happy

So it was an F-15 vs. F-14 thread and I noticed some fairly obvious inaccurate comments being made (which should've been my hint not to join in). As a disclaimer, I said I'm not an expert and would attempt to explain my OPINION through accessible info I've read through published books and public websites. Lo and behold, self-proclaimed expert comes in with these claims:

F-14s have a higher kill ratio than the F-15, claiming 164-1, 159 by Iranian F-14s to 1 loss, citing a Tom Cooper book for the info.

One F-14A shot down Iraqi Mirage F1 with AIM-54 at 10 miles.

Said loss, F-14 was shot down by cannon fire from MiG-21 after -14 suffered engine failure.

F-14 can fly as slow as 90mph.

AIM-120 was first tested on F-14, not F-15, and Tomcat was cleared to carry it.

I claimed the F-14 was not cleared to carry AIM-120 as I thought it carried AIM-7 up until its retirement. I mentioned F-14 shot down 4 MiGs (Gulf of Sidra incidents) and 1 helicopter with 1 F-14 lost to SAM (Gulf War). As far as I know, the F-15 has the highest kill ratio of the jet age. I'd appreciate anyone in "the know" with insight if anything to broaden my knowledge of the history of the F-14.

After he made statements like "F-14 is more maneuverable than anything in the sky, although the F-16 is more agile" and "If it was the F-14D, the Tomcat would not have been lost to the MiG", I just rolled my eyes and clicked on that X on the top right corner Rolling Eyes

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Forum Veteran Joined: Dec 15, 2006 - 12:28 AM Posts: 760

I would like to know what the kill ratio is but I am skeptical of some of the Iranian claims. I was under the impression the AIM-54 was never fired in combat, but I might be wrong/outdated.

I have heard a lot of claims, but a claim is not the same thing as credible confirmation.

I have heard many claims that F-16s and F-15s have been shot down in ATA, but have yet to see any credible evidence that any have been shot down in real ATA combat.

Anybody can make a claim that doesn’t mean it is credible
Baghdad Bob
http://www.vanhoey.org/baghdad/baghdad_bob.mpg

One F-16 was shot down over the Mediterranean by Mirage 2000. None F-15s were shot down... so far.

The AIM-54 was only used in anger by the Iranians, despite the efforts of US to disable those missiles when Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini took control. There are 27 hits scored by the Phoenix, 22 confirmed, including 3 MiG-23 destroyed by a single missile.

According to ACIG.org Tomcats scored 50 confirmed kills and 10 claimed during during 1976-1981 period. Lost none in air combat, but two were hit by SAMs (one damaged, one destroyed). Thats 100 short compared to your data Goatmilk.

A TuAF F-16D was shot down over the Aegean in the late '90s by a Mirage 2000, and a few (around 3-4) over Lebanon in 1982 by Syrian MiG-23s.

Quote:

and a few (around 3-4) over Lebanon in 1982 by Syrian MiG-23s.

No. According to some eywitness accounts, an IAF F-16 went down over Lebanon, behind Israeli lines, due to a malfunction - there were no Syrian air defence units in range and no Syrian interceptors in the air at that time and place.

The IAF lost in 82 over Lebanon 6 aircraft/helos :
an A-4, an F-4 and a couple of Cobras by SAMs
an F-4 and a Kfir shot down by MiG-21s

It is rumored that 2 or 3 F-15s returned to base damaged, but that's all.

As for the Greek-Turkish incident, it's debateable if it was intentional or a mistake.

Also a Japanese F-15 shot down its wingman in an exercise, and a PAF F-16 his, while intercepting some Soviet MiG-23s during the Afghan war.
Anyway blue-on-blue incidents do not count as victories, IMO.

As for Tom Cooper from ACIG.org, in the book mentioned in the first post he listed ALL Iranian CLAIMS to date for what they are - claims, he didn't pretend they were all confirmed victories. So far only 50 give or take are confirmed, as sundowner said. Anyway, researching the Iran-Irak war from the 80's is extremly difficult, no wonder there are mistakes.

I heard about a second TuAF F-16 or F-4 shot down over the Aegean during my military service in HAF, but who really knows..... Maybe all are rumours or all are true and classified.... Who knows..... Shrug

Only time will show...

Sundowner wrote:

The AIM-54 was only used in anger by the Iranians, despite the efforts of US to disable those missiles when Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini took control. There are 27 hits scored by the Phoenix, 22 confirmed, including 3 MiG-23 destroyed by a single missile.

How does that work then? Confused

snypa777 wrote:

Sundowner wrote:

The AIM-54 was only used in anger by the Iranians, despite the efforts of US to disable those missiles when Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini took control. There are 27 hits scored by the Phoenix, 22 confirmed, including 3 MiG-23 destroyed by a single missile.

How does that work then? Confused

+

The AIM-54 detonates between the 3 jets flying in formation, close enough for serous damage to be inflicted on all Wink

I`ve heard it too Cool

Sundowner wrote:

The AIM-54 was only used in anger by the Iranians, despite the efforts of US to disable those missiles when Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini took control. There are 27 hits scored by the Phoenix, 22 confirmed, including 3 MiG-23 destroyed by a single missile.

I believe that there were a couple of incidents where US Navy Tomcats fired AIM-54's at Iraqi aircraft in 'no fly' zones, probably late 90's or so. They were without success as the missiles were fired at extreme range against targets there turned away and accelerated.

Mike

I remember a Tomcat splashing a USAF RF-4C out of Zwiebrucken circa 1987 give or take a couple of years. Weapon of choice, AIM-9. Nugget was in front and had his switches set wrong. Recce crew was picked up by the carrier's SAR guys and got to "chat" with the guy who made them go swimming.

Afterwards, the guys in our squadron posted a picture of the F-14 on the Real World Threat Board. Picture was captioned, "Watch Out for These Sneaky F***ers".

maddog2840 wrote:

I remember a Tomcat splashing a USAF RF-4C out of Zwiebrucken circa 1987 give or take a couple of years. Weapon of choice, AIM-9. Nugget was in front and had his switches set wrong. Recce crew was picked up by the carrier's SAR guys and got to "chat" with the guy who made them go swimming.

Afterwards, the guys in our squadron posted a picture of the F-14 on the Real World Threat Board. Picture was captioned, "Watch Out for These Sneaky F***ers".

I remember that as well, it was during an excercise in the Med, and the Navy had asked the AF to run strikes against the carrier group (and there can't be much faster on the deck than an RF in burner - and yes, they 'could' carry at least one type of weapon) as the Tomcats attempted intercepts. I had heard that just as soon as the 'Cat driver saw the missile launch he started calling 'eject'...

Of course it's not just the Navy, there was also the young Eagle pilot in Alaska who shot his Squadron commander as they deployed to their alert facility.

Mike

maddog2840 wrote:

I remember a Tomcat splashing a USAF RF-4C out of Zwiebrucken circa 1987 give or take a couple of years. Weapon of choice, AIM-9. Nugget was in front and had his switches set wrong. Recce crew was picked up by the carrier's SAR guys and got to "chat" with the guy who made them go swimming.

Afterwards, the guys in our squadron posted a picture of the F-14 on the Real World Threat Board. Picture was captioned, "Watch Out for These Sneaky F***ers".

One thing that I certainly appreciate with American folks is their ability to make even bad things funny

Back ti the topik: I dont believe those numbers because those two airforce know how to make an mosquito look like an eagle. Iraqi pilots also claim victories with Mirage armed with SUper 539D. Not that this is impossible because super is a very fast missile. So for me their would be certainly a lot of kills but not that many.

I have been told the same by Navy pilots.

Quote:

I believe that there were a couple of incidents where US Navy Tomcats fired AIM-54's at Iraqi aircraft in 'no fly' zones, probably late 90's or so. They were without success as the missiles were fired at extreme range against targets there turned away and accelerated.

Spooky wrote:

I have been told the same by Navy pilots.

Quote:

I believe that there were a couple of incidents where US Navy Tomcats fired AIM-54's at Iraqi aircraft in 'no fly' zones, probably late 90's or so. They were without success as the missiles were fired at extreme range against targets there turned away and accelerated.

Mike

The Phoenix shoots were pretty heavily reported in the media at the time.

Mike

Enthusiast Joined: May 21, 2005 - 04:12 PM Posts: 21

goatmilk wrote:

I claimed the F-14 was not cleared to carry AIM-120 as I thought it carried AIM-7 up until its retirement.

That is correct, the F-14 never carrried the AIM-120 operationally.

goatmilk wrote:

F-14s have a higher kill ratio than the F-15, claiming 164-1, 159 by Iranian F-14s to 1 loss, citing a Tom Cooper book for the info.

The F-15A/C has never been lost in air to air combat, the F-14 has, so the F-15's ratio is higher. As far as cooper's claims, they are based on interviews with the pilots years after the events in question. Many of the kill claims are based on radar tracks disappearing from the F-14's scopes, and the Iranian government made no effort to confirm them for political reasons. If you know anything about the AWG-9's TWS "performance," especially overland you realize what a shaky basis that is to make a kill claim. As far as the legendary "three in one" kill, again if you understand how an AI radar works, that claim becomes laughable. If three aircraft are flying close enough together to be downed by a single missile, they are too close to be broken out as three distinct radar tracks, and the pilot has no way of knowing there is more than one aircraft there. If they are flying far enough apart for the radar to break them out, then they are outside the blast radius of the AIM-54.

Regards,
Murph

Forum: Military Aircraft of the Cold War

164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?