F-16.net

Printed from: F-16.net - The Ultimate F-16 Reference [http://www.f-16.net]
Document title: F-16.net - Manufacturers Dogfight over Fighter Programs :: F-16.net :: The Ultimate F-16 Reference
Original URL: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-8174-view-next-sid-24f46051bf077d73709e72b7cba7af18.html
Printed on: 29 August 2008

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

Manufacturers Dogfight over Fighter Programs



Search Search  Register Register  Log in to check your private messages Log in to check your private messages
guidelines Forum Guidelines
Post new topic   Reply to topic   1, 2  Next
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Author Message
LMAggie
PostPosted: Aug 24, 2008 - 04:28 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: Aug 12, 2007
Posts: 286
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Status: Offline
Aviation Week wrote:
Manufacturers Dogfight Over Fighter Programs - Aviation Week
Jul 18, 2008
By Douglas Barrie, Amy Butler and Robert Wall

Despite the more than $40 billion in fighter purchases up for grabs soon, governments are concerned about the long-term health of the industrial base for combat aircraft.

Contractors have started to engage in a spate of hotly contested fighter competitions around the world, with decisions pending in the next 24 months.

But in the U.S., the three major military airframers - Lockeed Martin, Boeing and Northrop Grumman - are participating in a far-reaching "war game," a Pentagon-backed study intended to assess the status of the future industrial base and secure capabilities required for future fighters and bombers.

One question is whether a second source is needed for the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. Boeing has briefed the Pentagon about how it could build the F-35, but JSF program officials say the cost is prohibitive and runs counter to the original affordability strategy underpinning the program.

In Europe, the four Eurofighter partner nations are struggling to strike a deal for the third Typhoon production tranche, while France is pushing for further consolidation of the region's combat aircraft sector. Russia is also on the brink of consolidating its fighter manufacturers.

Present fighter competitions - notionally totalling in excess of 400 aircraft - are being given an added edge by the pending arrival of the F-35, and the risk of closure of some of the competitor type production lines if additional orders are not secured in the next few years.

The Pentagon study will consider what technologies, skills and resources are in place for the next generation of strike aircraft beyond the F-35, including potentially an evolution to what some contractors refer to as a sixth-generation capability. This could include unmanned systems eligible for the U.S. Air Force's next-generation bomber as well as the Navy's F/A-XX. Northrop Grumman is vying with a Lockheed Martin/Boeing team for the bomber work.

After the industrial consolidations in the 1990s, the U.S. was left with two manned fighter production lines. A bomber hasn't been built since the 1990s.

Wall St. analysts will participate in the Pentagon study as neutral brokers.

Already, Boeing and Northrop Grumman are trading jabs. Chris Chadwick, president of Boeing Military Aircraft, says, "Does Northrop want to get back into the game? Sure." Boeing's future as a mainstay airframer of tactical aircraft is in question as the F/A-18 and F-15 production lines are expected to wind down in the next decade and the company has yet to secure new military work.

Northrop Grumman is building two Unmanned Combat Air System demonstrators for the U.S. Navy and has been upgrading the B-2 fleet with new coatings, communications and radar systems. Gary Ervin, president of Northrop Grumman Integrated Systems, notes that his company is also providing the center fuselage for the F-35. He says the industrial base exercise is merely a series of "what-if drills."

The pipeline is a concern for all of the companies. Chadwick says Boeing is working on flying prototypes in this area, though he declined to outline their purpose specifically. Boeing Advanced Systems President Darryl Davis says he's pushing the idea inside his company of doing more rapid prototyping partially because there are fewer Pentagon programs to tap into.

The Pentagon study is to follow the example of a similar one conducted before the downselect of the Joint Strike Fighter to Lockheed Martin.

The extremely high stakes in play in the ongoing fighter competitions are also spilling over into the F-35 program. Maj. Gen. Charles Davis, the F-35 program executive officer, wants manufacturers to set aside their rivalries and focus on exploring how their products will operate with the aircraft, rather than "wasting energy" trying to undermine it.

Davis recognizes that "the thinking has been slow so far" in developing the concept of operations for the F-35, both in the U.S. force structure and in the nine partner nations. He suggests that neither the USAF nor the Army have adequately addressed the conops implications of introducing the F-35 or discussed its relationship to the Future Combat System (FCS). The Marines, however, have grasped this issue: "The U.S. Marine Corps planned out from day one how the aircraft is going to integrate with the private on the ground," says Davis.

Boeing is overseeing the FCS program to field a suite of ground vehicles fitted with new weapons, communications and to operate with associated unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs). Talks with the Army about linking soldiers to the fighters have only just begun, Davis says. "We've had no discussions of any substance with them," he says, though he adds that the Army's interest has now been kindled.

Davis is critical of Boeing's aggressive marketing of its F/A-18E/F Super Hornet as an F-35 alternative, particularly at a time when the U.S. Congress and foreign defense ministries are closely watching the rising cost of the aircraft.

The F-35 will be an integral part of the Pentagon's emerging Anti-Access Denial Strike Force, a recasting of the "kick-down-the-door" concept to link the future stealth strike force of F-22s, B-2s and F-35s. Its goal is to defeat the most sophisticated integrated air defenses.

Washington's struggles with its future air combat platform needs - and the industrial implications - are also mirrored in ongoing deliberations in Europe.

A meeting between defense ministry representatives of the four Eurofighter partner governments is expected in August to find a way forward on Tranche 3 negotiations for the Typhoon, says EADS Defense and Security CEO Stefan Zoller.

Talks with industry have effectively halted because governments can't agree on how many aircraft to buy - the U.K. and Italy want to reduce the totals they've committed to. Nominally, Tranche 3 should encompass 236 fighters. The meeting will be held among senior defense ministry representatives to assure progress can be made.

A breakthrough must come soon if the Tranche 3 contract is to be signed by year-end or early next year, says Eurofighter CEO Aloysius Rauen. Delaying signature would risk unnecessarily driving up program costs, should a production gap emerge between the end of Tranche 2 work and commencement of Tranche 3. Eurofighter was asked to price options for the U.K. and Italy to buy half their allocated number or to take no aircraft in Tranche 3. However, one industry official says talks have moved beyond that.

Saudi Arabian interest in Tranche 3 aircraft, on top of the 72 Tranche 2 Typhoons already on order, could offset reductions in the British buy.

Additionally, the Eurofighter team is also trying to sharpen the upgrade strategy for the fighter, particularly with an eye on more quickly maturing capabilities needed to be successful in the export market. For instance, Rauen says a review is underway of the so-called phase 2 enhancement capability package, that could see the earlier introduction of an active, electronically scanned array (AESA) radar.

The exact timeline hasn't been set, although Rauen suggests the AESA capability will not emerge until after 2012; a system fielded before then would not beat the performance of the existing Captor-M radar, he insists.

One of the issues under review is whether to field an interim AESA, marrying the existing radar backend with an active antenna, or whether to go directly to a new radar with greater capability.

So far, none of the Typhoon partner countries has a stated requirement for an AESA, although the U.K. appears to be moving toward defining such a need.

Program officials also plan to discuss with governments ways to streamline requirements, which could accelerate some activities without adding cost.

source: http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... 20Programs


Good article. Dogfight is pretty much how to sum it up. I wish these defense review comittees had public forums. They have access to top secret information so I have no problem with them making decisions, however they should at least listen to some of the suggestions from the public (such as you guys).

_________________
“Its not the critic who counts..The credit belongs to the man who does actually strive to do the deeds..”
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
Sponsor
New postPosted: Aug 29, 2008 - 7:59 PM Back to top
F-16.net Sponsor






This message from our sponsor will disappear if you log on as a member.
   
 
geogen
PostPosted: Aug 25, 2008 - 06:53 AM Reply with quote Back to top
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: Aug 11, 2008
Posts: 337

Status: Offline
Boeing should keep pumping out highest capable new upgrade developments and configurations for Super hornet and Eagle, and shoot now for best possible 2018 bomber design. Above all, the future pipeline should center around researching superior UCAV designs and inevitable business in that market.

Of course, Boeing needs to exploit it's real and potential commercial aircraft industry like no tomorrow, or go bust.

_________________
The Super-Viper has not yet begun to concede.
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
LMAggie
PostPosted: Aug 25, 2008 - 07:09 AM Reply with quote Back to top
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: Aug 12, 2007
Posts: 286
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Status: Offline
I'd like to see their blended body design come to fruition.

Boeing Flies Blended Wing Body Research Aircraft

_________________
“Its not the critic who counts..The credit belongs to the man who does actually strive to do the deeds..”
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
Beagle79
PostPosted: Aug 25, 2008 - 10:38 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Regular User
Regular User


Joined: Aug 30, 2007
Posts: 50

Status: Offline
In my opinion, Boeing should do what it does the best and focus on large aircraft and its military derivatives. If it does not have experience designing first-class fighter jets (not counting those inherited from McD) from scratch, so be it. Transport, intelligence, maritime patrol and UAV offer a much greater window of opportunity than fighter jets along. Moreover, stop whining about the tanker deal --- MRTT is a superior design than KC767 --- and start to work on a 777-based (or better) proposal if the company still wants to capture a part of the contract. KC10-KC135 combo is likely to be replaced by another combo.

Back to the fighter R&D/production dogfight, personally i think JAS39 C/D or E/F is a great option for budget-conscious states who have capability n' simplicity in mind. Just my two cents Two Cents
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
geogen
PostPosted: Aug 26, 2008 - 06:43 AM Reply with quote Back to top
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: Aug 11, 2008
Posts: 337

Status: Offline
Interesting views, Beagle, re: the potential tanker combo aspect and suggested 777 or 787(?) tanker concept supplement?

_________________
The Super-Viper has not yet begun to concede.
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
Beagle79
PostPosted: Aug 26, 2008 - 07:13 AM Reply with quote Back to top
Regular User
Regular User


Joined: Aug 30, 2007
Posts: 50

Status: Offline
Hello Geogen - from a tactical standpoint, USAF obviously wants a bigger flying gas station as a KC135 replacement. A330/MRTT is not only larger but also technologically younger than 767. Hence, politics aside, MRTT would be the preferred choice (but of course, which decision can be made without politics nowadays). Unlike their civilian counterparts, military jets usually stay in service for 2-3 decades or longer; a K767 fleet would obviously become obsolete faster than a MRTT fleet. Boeing was crazy (if not outright overconfident) to file a 767-based proposal to go head to head with A330 MRTT....
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
FlightDreamz
PostPosted: Aug 26, 2008 - 11:59 AM Reply with quote Back to top
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster


Joined: Aug 18, 2007
Posts: 69

Status: Offline
I couldn't agree more with Beagle79. Northrup/Grumman won (before it was decided to hold the competition all over again) that tanker contract on merits. It annoys the @#$%!! out of me the way this tanker competition is dragging on. The air force is fast approaching a wall not just with its tanker fleet, but across the board with aircraft that need to be maintained and/or replaced.

_________________
I feel the need, the need for speed - YeeHAW!
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
Obamanite
PostPosted: Aug 26, 2008 - 05:57 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: Aug 26, 2008
Posts: 262

Status: Offline
Good to see that jingoistic sentiment on this board has not trumped common sense. Seems to me that EADS/NG won the tanker competition fair and square, particularly against a company who first tried to steal the contract right under the noses of Congress and U.S. taxpayers with that lease scheme that McCain, rightly, opposed and had scuttled and which landed Boeing and Pentagon officials in jail for collusion. And now we have Mrs. Clinton complaining that giving the contract to EADS/NG could erode our industrial and national security competitiveness. This is one case where I, in no uncertain terms agree with McCain's actions (hell, would have voted for the guy in 2000 had he been the R nominee)...
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
FlightDreamz
PostPosted: Aug 13, 2008 - 03:07 AM Reply with quote Back to top
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster


Joined: Aug 18, 2007
Posts: 69

Status: Offline
And to add insult to injury Boeing is "leaning toward" NOT rebidding on the KC-X airborne tanker http://aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=aerospacedaily&id=news/BOEING081108.xml&headline=Boeing%20Leaning%20Toward%20Not%20Re-bidding%20KC-X

Why in @#$%!! did they protest it then? I'm just aghast that Boeing is allowed to throw this temper tantrum at taxpayers expense.
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
Obamanite
PostPosted: Aug 13, 2008 - 06:08 AM Reply with quote Back to top
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: Aug 26, 2008
Posts: 262

Status: Offline
FlightDreamz wrote:
And to add insult to injury Boeing is "leaning toward" NOT rebidding on the KC-X airborne tanker http://aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=aerospacedaily&id=news/BOEING081108.xml&headline=Boeing%20Leaning%20Toward%20Not%20Re-bidding%20KC-X

Why in @#$%!! did they protest it then? I'm just aghast that Boeing is allowed to throw this temper tantrum at taxpayers expense.


Like a sore loser, it's going to take its toys and go play elsewhere. Only to have its mommy - Congress - go beat up the kid who did win fair and square...
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
asiatrails
PostPosted: Aug 13, 2008 - 06:42 AM Reply with quote Back to top
Elite
Elite


Joined: Aug 30, 2005
Posts: 649

Status: Offline
geogen wrote:
Interesting views, Beagle, re: the potential tanker combo aspect and suggested 777 or 787(?) tanker concept supplement?


Right now the 787-8 or -9 structure appears to be too flexible to make a good basis for a tanker. Probably have to wait until the 787-3 for ANA is flying to start looking at tanker/freighter versions
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
johnwill
PostPosted: Aug 13, 2008 - 09:13 AM Reply with quote Back to top
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: Aug 24, 2007
Posts: 379

Status: Offline
With all due respect, Asiatrails, what could you possibly base that opinion on? All airplanes are flexible, so what makes the 787-8 or -9 too flexible? What is "too flexible"? Maybe you meant lacking in maximum offloaded fuel capability.

Also I don't understand your comment about the -3. It has only 1/3 the fuel capacity of and a much lower max gross weight than the -8.
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
asiatrails
PostPosted: Aug 14, 2008 - 05:08 AM Reply with quote Back to top
Elite
Elite


Joined: Aug 30, 2005
Posts: 649

Status: Offline
johnwill wrote:
With all due respect, Asiatrails, what could you possibly base that opinion on? All airplanes are flexible, so what makes the 787-8 or -9 too flexible? What is "too flexible"? Maybe you meant lacking in maximum offloaded fuel capability.

Also I don't understand your comment about the -3. It has only 1/3 the fuel capacity of and a much lower max gross weight than the -8.


Sorry, by flexible I intended to indicate that the basic design allows (relatively) easy stretches to cover the proposed 247.5t (545,000lb) maximum take-off weight variant of the -9 for Qantas,to replace their 767-300 airframes.

This higher gross-weight variant is well beyond the 226.8t limit originally outlined for the -9 variant, and brings it close to the theoretical 255t MTOW design limit of the baseline structural configuration.

Going back to the baseline and starting from the -3 fuselage it would be (relatively) easy to plug in fuselage sections which are stressed for cargo doors and the associated rough handling which these areas of the airframe receives.

Boeing does not intend to offer a freighter version of the 787 for 10+ years, the 747-8 freighter is selling at a steady, although slow pace, and the 777 freighter is selling well. These new airframes together with the large number of available wide body passenger aircraft being replaced by the 787 /350 etc. means that the market for freighters is pretty well supplied.

My thoughts are to look for someone like FEDEX retiring their MD-10/MD-11 fleet for the first orders for the 787 freighter.
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
LowObservable
PostPosted: Aug 14, 2008 - 06:39 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Active member
Active member


Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 132

Status: Offline
It could be an issue with rotation clearance on the boom. That was why the 767-300 couldn't be a KCX platform, and that might well affect 787 too. 777-200F is like 767-200 - a short airframe with designed-in stretch, hence extra tail clearance.
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
johnwill
PostPosted: Aug 14, 2008 - 11:04 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: Aug 24, 2007
Posts: 379

Status: Offline
Asiatrails,
Right after I posted my item, I wondered if maybe I misunderstood your use of "flexible" to mean structural flexibility. Thanks for the explanation.
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:     
Jump to:  
All times are GMT - 11 Hours
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Copyright © 2008 Lieven Dewitte and Stefaan Vanhastel