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Elite 1K Joined: Jul 20, 2005 Posts: 1035 Status: Offline

I would simply challenge you to produce the law specifically banning the F-22 FMS.

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Enthusiast Joined: Oct 19, 2006 Posts: 96 Status: Offline

VPRGUY wrote:

What I'm wondering is this: Most of what I hear is that the F-35 has more advanced technology than the F-22, which seems natural since it is a "newer" airplane than the Raptor. . . .
So my question is this: Why is it ok to hand out top shelf electronics and systems with high end stealth, but not top end stealth with high end electronics?<

The F-22 and F-35 are built around different roles. The F-22 is an air superiority fighter, first and foremost. The F-35 is a "Joint Strike Fighter". Even with a new generation in electronics, the F-35 still lacks many of the advantages (in terms of supercruise and post-stall maneuverability - to name but two) that make the F-22 the phenominal war machine that it is.

There should be no mistaking this in anyone's minds. As an air-to-air weapon, the F-22 will smoke anything else either flying or on the drawing boards - F-35 included.

Enthusiast Joined: Oct 19, 2006 Posts: 96 Status: Offline

checksixx wrote:

Cool...if anyone does have trouble with it, here is the PDF. I would have posted it earlier, but my net connection kept going in and out.

Thanks for the posting. Great reading.

CheckSixx, I suggest reading this link then this one, notice the dates.

Some excerpts...

Quote:

Published: September 11, 2006

One measure, passed by the House in July on a voice vote after only 11 minutes of discussion, would end a ban on F-22 sales abroad.

The House effort to lift the ban on foreign sales was offered by Representative Kay Granger, the Texas Republican whose district includes the Lockheed factory that makes the F-22's midsection and employs 2,640 people.

Quote:

Sep 27, 2006
Congressional defense appropriators have agreed to allow a multiyear contract for F-22A Raptor procurement, but decided against allowing foreign sales of the futuristic fighter after considering otherwise.

AS for the actual bill, the portion concerning the F-22 was an amendment to a much larger defense appropriations bill which is not posted online. If you want more information I guess you'll have to contact your local rep.

Elite 1K Joined: Jul 20, 2005 Posts: 1035 Status: Offline

All the bills and amendments are online and searchable (thomas.loc.gov)...unfortunately, you won't find anything other than the Arms Export Control Act which covers the F-22 along with everything else.

I feel vindicated Smile

VPRGUY wrote:

A few years down the road, however, things may have changed significantly in the world political arena. There is no way to know if the government will decide at that time to lift the FMS ban on the F-22

This is from an article just posted on F-16.net, which I'm sure we can all agree is a reasonably decent source.

First of all:

Quote:

The export of the F-22A however is banned under federal law until 2015 and needs approval from the U.S. Congress and the Pentagon.

That is only 7 years away, regardless of what happens.

Quote:

In mock battles with F-15, F-16 and F-18 fighter jets, the F-22 achieved a 144:0 kill-to-loss ratio. The South Korean Air Force, composed mainly of F-15 and F-16 fighters, would probably be powerless in front of the Japanese Air Self Defense Force equipped with F-22s.

Interesting, pointing out that South Korea's air force would quickly fold under Japanese raptors.....

Quote:

Seoul unveiled its ambition today to also procure fifth-generation fighter jets such as F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II, to keep up with the air superiority of neighboring powers.

Both Japan AND South Korea having F-22's? Highly unlikely the US would make that kind of political move; that almost directly threatens North Korea and China- steps I don't think the US would want to take. One or the other, ok, but both? Not likely.

And, the answer we've been looking for:

Quote:

The United States would also be inclined to allow the sale of the F-22 Raptor to the Israeli Air Force if the State of Israel's security was in jeopardy

But,

Quote:

While Congress and the Pentagon would be hesitant to release classified technology like the F-22 to Israel, "if it came to a question of Israeli security, I am confident they will come to help."

this seems to vindicate what some here have mentioned about the doubts of releasing the technology to Isreal, for whatever reason....

Enthusiast Joined: Apr 24, 2007 Posts: 32

Looks like Japan wants to know what secrets the plane holds. The IAF just knows how good our stuff flies and fights.

Quote:

Japan’s defense minister, Fumio Kyuma, has asked Defense Secretary Robert Gates for top-secret technical data about the Pentagon’s prized F-22A Raptor, which Tokyo would like to buy.

“We have heard the capability [of the F-22A] is quite high,” Kyuma said Wednesday in Washington. “But without more concrete information disclosed, we won’t be able to know” about a number of technical and performance specifications.

The Obey amendment must be getting on their nerves.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2007/ ... r__070502/

Elite 1K Joined: Jul 20, 2005 Posts: 1035 Status: Offline

H.R.5631
Department of Defense Appropriations Act, 2007

SEC. 8062. None of the funds made available in this Act may be used to approve or license the sale of the F-22A advanced tactical fighter to any foreign government.

Specifically, it does not ban the sale of the F-22. Rather the Raptor already falls under the Arms Exportation Act. The purpose of the line item was to not allow appropriation of the procurement funds approved to be used for anything other than US Air Force procurement of the F-22.

Check

Enthusiast Joined: Apr 24, 2007 Posts: 32

I know that, from several post ago.... the Obey's is still tacked on and that's the one amendment most every news related f-22 article sites for any f-22 hold up. Including this f-22 data release. I fully understand about the act, I'm not debating that. Others might take it to pedantic level.

Thumper3181 wrote:

I think it's a really bad idea to export the Raptor to anyone, but if we did then Japan and Australia should get it long before Israel ever does. They face much more sophisticated threats and they do not reverse engineer our stuff and then market competing products to friends and potential foes alike.

I don't know what version of Eurofighter SA is getting but I doubt it will be a match for Israeli modified F-15s and F-16s.

I don't even see the point of exporting the F-35 to them. If they really feel threatened they can go out and by Eurofighters with their own money.

I would agree if the US does export the F-22 Raptor. Australia, Japan, or South Korea would come first. So, in the short term no! Down the road anything is possible...........of course much depends on how Iraq turns out and if Iran gets in line with the rest of the world? Regardless, Israel should get the F-35. Which, more than likely will be over kill to the likely threats she may encounter in the forseeable future..........IMO

Elite 1K Joined: Aug 01, 2006 Posts: 1003 Status: Offline

Corsair1963 wrote:

I would agree if the US does export the F-22 Raptor. Australia, Japan, or South Korea would come first. So, in the short term no! Down the road anything is possible...........of course much depends on how Iraq turns out and if Iran gets in line with the rest of the world? Regardless, Israel should get the F-35. Which, more than likely will be over kill to the likely threats she may encounter in the forseeable future..........IMO

The best thing in that region is most likely to be future Saudi Typhoons. The F-35 should be more than enough to fly air superiority against these. Maybe not with as much kinematic flexibility as the F-22, but when it comes down to shooting and killing them it'll be more than up to the task.

dwightlooi wrote:

Corsair1963 wrote:

I would agree if the US does export the F-22 Raptor. Australia, Japan, or South Korea would come first. So, in the short term no! Down the road anything is possible...........of course much depends on how Iraq turns out and if Iran gets in line with the rest of the world? Regardless, Israel should get the F-35. Which, more than likely will be over kill to the likely threats she may encounter in the forseeable future..........IMO

The best thing in that region is most likely to be future Saudi Typhoons. The F-35 should be more than enough to fly air superiority against these. Maybe not with as much kinematic flexibility as the F-22, but when it comes down to shooting and killing them it'll be more than up to the task.

and that is the least likely threat that Israel would have to deal with...........

Elite 1K Joined: Jul 20, 2005 Posts: 1035 Status: Offline

SkunkWorksPlayboy wrote:

I know that, from several post ago.... the Obey's is still tacked on and that's the one amendment most every news related f-22 article sites for any f-22 hold up. Including this f-22 data release. I fully understand about the act, I'm not debating that. Others might take it to pedantic level.

You can believe the Obey thing is still there, but its not. Try to find it!

Enthusiast Joined: Apr 24, 2007 Posts: 32

You're quoting lines from the original Obey amendment -- tacked onto the Act : introduced in 1997-1998

From 1997-1998: Same as 2007

Quote:

to approve or license the sale of the F-22A advanced tactical fighter to any foreign government.

From the Obey amendment:
The Obey amendment, Appropriations bill
Public Law 106-79, Section 8092, sponsored by Congressman Obey in 1997 states,

Quote:

"None of the funds made available in this Act may be used to approve or license the sale of the F-22 advanced tactical fighter to any foreign government."

I guess what you're saying is that defensenews.com & airforcetimes.com and the load of other news sites are wrong when they mention the Obey amendment?

Elite 1K Joined: Jul 20, 2005 Posts: 1035 Status: Offline

Not at all, they can call it whatever they want...its just that there is no actual amendment. The line was added specifically to protect the funds from being misappropriated as I stated before. If you read it, the line stated in the appropriations bill does not prohibit the sale of the Raptor. There is no need to single it out as it already falls under the Arms Export Control Act.

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