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Document title: Israel in talks with USA over F-22 orders - F-16.net - The Ultimate F-16 Reference
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Printed on: 11 October 2008

Forum: F-22A Raptor

Israel in talks with USA over F-22 orders



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elp
PostPosted: Apr 25, 2007 - 07:13 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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The F-22 won't be sold to Israel for any number of reasons. As for allies in the region, better check with Jordan. Wink

Buick of Stealth F-35 might see service at some point and under the excuse that Israel is already an industry participant. Of course in order to keep anything resembling camp david agreement in effect, Egypt will have to get the JSF also. By the time the LOEXCOM workgroup figures out what an export version of the JSF should look like, especially a version for the M.E., afaik they haven't, it should have the L.O. profile some where better than a clean Super Hornet. Laughing

As for who is and who isn't important for F-22 export and the method of how that can happen, one might want to read the attached study. Very illuminating. The F-22 export process was figured our years ago by LM and part of it later under the direction of DOD.



F-22exportStudy.pdf
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F-22 Export Study, Maxwell AFB, for public release unlimited.

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 Filename:  F-22exportStudy.pdf
 Filesize:  494.68 KB
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idesof
PostPosted: Apr 25, 2007 - 05:38 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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elp wrote:
The F-22 won't be sold to Israel for any number of reasons. As for allies in the region, better check with Jordan. Wink

Buick of Stealth F-35 might see service at some point and under the excuse that Israel is already an industry participant. Of course in order to keep anything resembling camp david agreement in effect, Egypt will have to get the JSF also. By the time the LOEXCOM workgroup figures out what an export version of the JSF should look like, especially a version for the M.E., afaik they haven't, it should have the L.O. profile some where better than a clean Super Hornet. Laughing

As for who is and who isn't important for F-22 export and the method of how that can happen, one might want to read the attached study. Very illuminating. The F-22 export process was figured our years ago by LM and part of it later under the direction of DOD.


Guess again, buddy. From Aviation Week. Notice that the Pentagon itself wants the F-22 exported. And that it was a bill sponsored by a DEMOCRAT, god forbid, that established the Congressional prohibition to exporting the F-22, advocated by so many on this site who otherwise think Democrats are the devil incarnate. Godspeed to the Israelis, Australians and Japanese...

Quote:
F-22 Tops Japan's Military Wish List

Apr 22, 2007
By David A. Fulghum and Douglas Barrie


Top Japanese military officials are quietly but firmly insisting they want the U.S. to release the F-22 to compete for the air force's F-X fighter program, and are adamant about fielding the most advanced air-combat technology available.

Tokyo wants a stealthy fighter equipped with an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar for cruise missile detection and wide-band data links to push additional information into Japan's increasingly sophisticated air defense system. For the moment, only the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor offers all these features.

Access, however, is far from assured, with the U.S. Congress requiring over-sight and approval of any plan for foreign sale of the stealth fighter. The U.S. has been trying to pitch either an upgrade of in-service designs (such as F/A-18E/Fs or F-15Es equipped with advanced, small-target, long-range radars) or the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter for the F-X program. The primary driver for the F-X requirement remains air superiority--which includes cruise missile defense--for which Tokyo wants the F-22.

Japan also faces the cost of integrating an anti-tamper kit on key technologies, including hardware and software, on the F-22. Estimates range from $600 million to $1.2 billion. Key software that would be protected, for example, manipulates and integrates the advanced, cruise missile-detecting radar and long-range electronic surveillance array, as well as the aircraft's other target-detection and analysis sensors.

U.S. aerospace industry officials say the cost would be no more than $1 billion--if it means integrating a new common processor--and could be "far less," depending on how much or little the U.S. determines must be protected, according to a study done when Australia was considering buying the F-22.

Were Washington to nix release of the F-22, then European manufacturers would try to capitalize on the opportunity. The Eurofighter Typhoon is already being pitched for Japan. A variant fitted with an active "E-scan" radar array and the Meteor rocket-ramjet radar-guided air-to-air missile would offer a capable air superiority platform.

One way to defray some of the potential cost would be if the U.S. Air Force also buys the new computer as an F-22 upgrade. Moreover, if Japan buys the aircraft, it would reduce the cost of F-22s to the U.S. Air Force and perhaps let it acquire a few more of the advanced fighters, a crucial need if the F-35 JSF program slips.

Release of the F-22 is becoming a point of pride with the Japanese, who provide the U.S. forward bases in the region as well as dispersal and rapid deployment options in case of a military confrontation or natural disaster, say U.S. officials. Exporting the technology isn't a concern for U.S. combat pilots, since software packages for U.S. versions of the aircraft will always contain extra capabilities. In addition, U.S. military officials are privately asking administration and senior Pentagon civilians to reconsider the export restrictions, at least for Japan.

"I'm aware the Japanese are interested in the F-22," Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told Aviation Week & Space Technology last week. "I'm also aware of our concerns about what we export and don't export of our high technologies. The Japanese are very close friends. We're committed to protecting Japan, so we'll work our way through it. We all need to be concerned about both ballistic and cruise missile defense. It's something that we . . . need to work on."

There also seems to be a Pentagon precedent for meeting Japan's high-tech needs.

"We had an identical situation with the F-15," says a U.S. aerospace industry official close to the program. "It was a point of pride with the Japanese, and even though the F-15 was considered exceptional technology, they had it within two years of initial operational capability in the U.S. Air Force. The U.S. Air Force and the Japanese Ministry of Defense want the sale to take place, but what's missing this time is someone pushing it at the State Dept. level. There needs to be political pressure, but right now there's no vocal advocate."

What may change the formula is the growing awareness of cruise missile technology proliferation and the fact that little attention has been paid to fielding cruise missile defenses in Japan, which is only a few hundred miles from North Korea and China and would be the most vulnerable from a surprise attack.

"Once the Japanese politicians realize that it's a matter of national survival, not just national pride, it could generate support outside the Japanese Self-Defense Force," the industry official says.

The F-X fighter competition is "hot--too hot" to discuss openly for defense, industrial and political reasons, say Japanese officials. But they are determined to accept only the most sophisticated fighter technology. As a military issue, the concern is determining just what constitutes offensive capabilities that are prohibited by the Japanese constitution. An effective counter against ballistic missile attack for most countries includes penetrating enemy air defenses to bomb launch sites before missiles can be fired. In addition, whatever fighter design is chosen must have substantial input from Japanese industry to get political support. The U.S. may have to share some manufacturing processes.

Finally, China is insisting that to show good faith, and strengthen commercial ties, Japan must avoid what it contends are militarily provocative steps. That includes Japan's support for the U.S., which would likely intercede in a Chinese military confrontation with Taiwan. Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao told the Japanese Diet: "We will never tolerate Taiwan's becoming independent."

The Japanese and Chinese governments have expressed regret over treatment of each other's civilian populations. But Wen says China wants Japan to follow up its apologies for aggression in World War II "with actual actions." Japanese analysts take that to mean they are being warned to stop any action linked to war-related issues. That could include defense modernization, U.S. joint training and operations, or even development of a Japanese air-to-ground bombing capability.

Buying the F-22 could push against those Chinese limits, particularly because of the network integration capabilities and long-surveillance range the fighter brings with it. It undoubtedly would extend the footprint of Japan's defenses. Land elements of the ground-based missile defense system have already been improved with a powerful X-band radar and PAC-3 Patriot batteries. The latter have electronically scanned array radars capable of detecting cruise missiles and deceiving them with jamming and false targets, in addition to their better known ballistic missile capabilities.

The Japanese air force is already adding major pieces needed for an advanced airborne defense. That includes their E-767 AWACS (for long-range, early warning of aircraft-launched, cruise missile attack) and KC-767 tankers (to keep anti-cruise missile fighter orbits aloft for extended periods). What's still missing is a longer endurance fighter with a radar powerful enough to detect small targets such as cruise missiles at ranges great enough to intercept them. New AIM-120 Amraam missiles (C-6, C-7 and D variants) are being developed specifically for high probabilities of kill against cruise missiles.

The older F-15's manually scanned radar has a range of about 56 mi. Japan's newest F-2 fighter (a larger F-16 variant) has a rudimentary AESA radar, but its range and picture is almost identical to mechanically scanned designs, say Japanese fighter pilots. By comparison, the F-22's radar has a 125-150-mi. range and can discriminate small, perhaps even some stealthy objects.

Senior Japanese officials want to buy the F-22 as a continuation of their long-standing policy to field the best fighter technology--an effort that earlier brought them the F-4J Phantom II and F-15J Eagle. In addition to carrying new weapons and sensors, the F-22 can operate about 3 mi. higher (at 65,000 ft.) than other fighters. That gives better situational awareness of the battlefield. It also offers supercruise--the ability to fly at supersonic speeds for extended periods--which allows F-22s to range quickly over a larger battlefield.

U.S. military officials tried to promote the idea that Japan could buy a 4.5th-generation fighter--advanced weapons, sensors and networking, but without stealth--as a bridge to the fifth-generation F-35, which is designed as a stealthy, export aircraft. Singapore made that move with the F-15SG, as did Australia with the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. They are both partners in the Joint Strike Fighter program. Moreover, the U.S. is moving its only squadron of AESA-radar-equipped F-15Cs from Elmendorf AFB, Alaska, to Kadena AB in Okinawa, Japan. However, so far, the idea of a bridge aircraft has been rejected by the Japanese.
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elp
PostPosted: Apr 25, 2007 - 11:16 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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No guessing. Israel doesn't hold the same cache as Australia when considering export of this item given todays M.E. climate. Take some time and read all of that study.

We aren't going to further ruin what remaining relations we have left in the M.E. by doing something really stupid like exporting the F-22 there. You might want to educate yourself on what Jordan did for us in the 2003 OIF start. And what they still provide for us today in the area of a place to have logistics and forces going in and out of Iraq and regional political help. Yeah, lets throw OIF even more into the toilet by putting F-22 in the hands of the IDF. Next tell me how you are going to handle Egypt, Turkey (JSF partner), Saudi Arabia, etc. AIPAC doesn't have enough muscle to hold this one up. Especially in an upcoming election year.

As for anti-tamper devices: That already exists in an export variant concept of the F-22. The writer of that story either hasn't done all of their homework or doesn't have any idea what risk assessment methods LM already has in place for export of F-22.

As for the law having to do with F-22 export, it can be changed easily by the smell of money. What makes F-22 difficult for Australia is that they have already signed up for F-35 and there is already a fair amount of home workshare involved in that. Now tell me what workshare F-22 offers in some future dream? Try taking F-35 Australian workshare away which starts at around $5billion and if F-35 goes real well might even reach $9billion for industry there. LM doesn't want to goof up F-35 with F-22 interest. Where a JSF partner already exists, F-22 is not going to be offered to screw up F-35. If F-35 dies due to costing up because of our funding of the war and lack of cash to pay for the production schedule. Happened once, can happen, again and again remember the war is on the credit card.... or if there is some tech issue, F-35 might get canceled by JSF partners, and in the case of Australia, they may be offered F-22. Even then who knows? Australia is already into aircraft purchased to the tune of $22billion when you add Super Hornet and F-35 together. We'll see.
Japan? Well, they can ask. Laughing Consider that some in the U.S. government, love the cash from China...( where do you think we are getting some of the credit for the war Laughing )... the lovers of China money and business in the U.S. government may in fact say F-22 export is bad, and make effort to kill the request. Surprised

Back to the topic. Israel is a valuable ally. Lets not get carried away with pumping more high end weapons into the M.E.

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checksixx
PostPosted: Apr 25, 2007 - 01:02 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Some on here talk like there is a law in place specifically for the F-22...that is not the case. A law is in place that governs the export of ANY arm or weapon system out of the United States. Approval is needed for any of them to be exported. To put it simply, the F-22 does not have export approval.
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PhillyGuy
PostPosted: Apr 25, 2007 - 01:56 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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checksixx wrote:
Some on here talk like there is a law in place specifically for the F-22...that is not the case.


Actually yes it is, there is a specific congressional law that bans F-22 sales, once that is lifted then countries can make a request to the DoD and State Department who will in turn seek congressional approval. Until then those departments will not review the matter because sales are prohibited outright. This is not a case of needing approval; it's one of overturning a law then requesting approval.

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checksixx
PostPosted: Apr 25, 2007 - 02:32 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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PhillyGuy wrote:
Actually yes it is, there is a specific congressional law that bans F-22 sales, once that is lifted then countries can make a request to the DoD and State Department who will in turn seek congressional approval. Until then those departments will not review the matter because sales are prohibited outright. This is not a case of needing approval; it's one of overturning a law then requesting approval.


No...as I said above it is not specific to the F-22. The F-22 like anything else, falls under US Code Title 22, Chapter 39 Arms Export Control. Commonly referred to as the Arms Export Control Act. Your description of the process is almost correct...other than the fact that you state getting approval and then tell me that no approval is needed. Maybe you were drinking when you wrote this. In any case, no law needs overturning but rather they need approval to bypass it to proceed with FMS.
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checksixx
PostPosted: Apr 25, 2007 - 02:38 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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I would also highly suggest this as a good read on Arms Export and F-22 Export:

https://research.maxwell.af.mil/papers/ ... molloy.pdf

Check
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elp
PostPosted: Apr 25, 2007 - 10:04 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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checksixx wrote:
I would also highly suggest this as a good read on Arms Export and F-22 Export:

https://research.maxwell.af.mil/papers/ ... molloy.pdf

Check


Check... same think I posted (attached to the post) as that link is dead. Smile

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checksixx
PostPosted: Apr 26, 2007 - 01:06 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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The link works fine you just can't save it until you open it. When the certificate error pops up, just clink proceed to site anyways. Once the PDF opens, then save it....Check
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elp
PostPosted: Apr 26, 2007 - 01:18 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Works now. Razz

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checksixx
PostPosted: Apr 26, 2007 - 01:28 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Cool...if anyone does have trouble with it, here is the PDF. I would have posted it earlier, but my net connection kept going in and out.



molloy.pdf
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F-22 Export

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SkunkWorksPlayboy
PostPosted: Apr 26, 2007 - 06:59 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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I think maybe PhillyGuy was referring to the Obey amendment An amendment to prohibit the sale of F-22 aircraft to any foreign government. Where Rep, David Obey is directly targeting F-22 sales. I guess more red tape never hurt.


"We were told that we had to go ahead and construct the F-22 because we had given away so much technology by selling F-15s and F-16s," Obey told Defense News, a trade publication. "So I said, if we are going to build the thing, at least let's make certain that we hang onto our technology edge this time."
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checksixx
PostPosted: Apr 26, 2007 - 01:03 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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That was from 1997 and is no longer in place. Quote:

"The looming showdown was set up after the House, in the form of an amendment to its defense appropriations bill, agreed to terminate the Obey-backed statute. The FY-07 amendment, approved late last month, was offered by House Appropriations defense subcommittee member Kay Granger (R-TX).

“While there was merit in including this provision in 1997 when it was first enacted, the provision has become unnecessary due to comprehensive safeguards enacted into permanent law under the Arms Export Control Act, which is vigorously enforced by the” Pentagon, Granger said June 20 on the House floor. “I believe this provision of this bill is no longer necessary to safeguard our technology.”
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PostPosted: Apr 26, 2007 - 06:01 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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What I'm wondering is this: Most of what I hear is that the F-35 has more advanced technology than the F-22, which seems natural since it is a "newer" airplane than the Raptor. The main difference that I've heard of is the F-35 isn't quite as "stealthy" as the -22, but is still leaps and bounds beyond almost everything else. Despite this, we're going to be handing the F-35 out almost like candy. So my question is this: Why is it ok to hand out top shelf electronics and systems with high end stealth, but not top end stealth with high end electronics? Is the Raptors supercruise/range/stealth really the issue here, or does the US just not want to give up its $100 million baby?
>For the record, I don't really think anyone else needs the F-22 right now. Hell, we don't need it right now, but we do need it to stack the future in our odds. This is just a hypothetical question Smile <

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PhillyGuy
PostPosted: Apr 26, 2007 - 08:42 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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CheckSixx, the House (not the Congress) voted to lift the ammendment banning F-22 sales in June when voting on a new defense appropriations bill. The Senate did not vote for the same bill and wanted changes, when both chambers met in a join session in September (2006) to discuss their differences the ammendment banning F-22 sales was upheld.

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