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F-35 cost overruns



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Meathook
PostPosted: Mar 16, 2007 - 02:24 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Cost overruns still plague F-35 joint strike fighter, GAO says
Dave Montgomery, McClatchy News Service
03/16/2007

Lockheed Martin's F-35 joint strike fighter, conceived as a versatile and affordable fighter for the United States and its allies, continues to be plagued by rising costs that have boosted the per-unit price tag by 12 percent over the past three years, according to a government report released Thursday.

But the Defense Department challenged the conclusions of the Government Accountability Office, the chief investigative arm of Congress, and rebuffed the GAO's recommendations to limit F-35 production at 24 aircraft year through the end of the decade.

Now entering its sixth year of development, the joint strike fighter, also known as the F-35 Lightning II, is the nation's most expensive weapons program. The total cost of development and production is projected at $276.5 billion, and the Department of Defense estimates eventually spending a total of $623 billion to purchase, operate and support the strike fighter fleet, the GAO said.

Lockheed Martin leads a manufacturing team that also includes Northrop Grumman and British-based BAE Systems. The aircraft is being assembled at Lockheed's plant in Fort Worth and made its first test flight on Dec. 15.

"Accurately predicting JSF costs and schedule and ensuring sufficient funding will likely be key challenges facing the program in the future," the report said. The program will demand "unprecedented funding" over the next two decades - more than $12.6 billion a year on average through 2027, the GAO said.

The GAO called for a 24-a-year production cap until each of the three planned F-35 variants have demonstrated "basic flying qualities" in flight tests through 2010. But the Pentagon, in a strong endorsement of the F-35, defended its acquisition strategy and said the program will continue to ramp up toward full-rate production of at least 240 a year by 2014.

"The department believes that a major manufacturing or design flaw, requiring extensive delay of the program, is unlikely," the Pentagon said in its response, which was included in the GAO report.

Lockheed spokesman John Smith said F-35s will log 1,350 test flights before the military receives the first production aircraft in 2009.

"The F-35 program is demonstrating affordability, design stability, reliable cost forecasts and adherence to schedules," Smith said.

The GAO acknowledged that the F-35 program is making progress but said the government will ultimately "be buying fewer aircraft for a greater financial investment" because of setbacks caused by early delays and design problems.

Total projected acquisition costs have increased by $31.6 billion since 2004. The program has confronted delays in several "key events," including the start of the flight test program, delivery of the first production representative development aircraft and testing of critical mission systems.

The average cost per airplane, the report said, has risen from $82 million to almost $95 million. That figure is sharply at odds with the government projections, which ranges from $47 million to $60 million, depending on the variant.

The aircraft is being built in three versions: a conventional takeoff and landing version for the Air Force, a Navy version that can take off and land on aircraft carriers, and a model for the Marines than can make short takeoffs and vertical landings. Production for the U.S. military is expected to continue through at least 2027.

President Bush's 2008 defense budget calls for $6.1 billion in 2008 to build a total of 12 F-35s - six for the Air Force and six for the Navy. The proposed expenditure marks a substantial increase over the $4.9 billion that Congress allocated for 2007, although original plans envisioned a total of 24 in 2008.

Current plans call for 2,458 planes for services in the United States and Great Britain, although the Lockheed-led manufacturing team hopes to sell perhaps thousands more to other foreign customers.

Planners originally envisioned a total of 2,988 aircraft, but the overall size of the purchase has been scaled back because of past design problems that "affected the aircraft's ability to meet key performance requirements," the GAO said.

"The program's inability to meet its ambitious goals resulted in (the Defense) Department's failing to deliver on the business case that justified initial investment in the JSF," the report said. "As a result, purchase quantities have been reduced, total program costs have increased, and delivery of the initial aircraft has been delayed."

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Meathook
PostPosted: Mar 16, 2007 - 02:27 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Hill Air Force Base: Turbulence ahead for jet fighter
03/16/2007

Major challenges lie ahead for the Joint Strike Fighter, the next-generation jet fighter expected to be key to the future of Hill Air Force Base, a report to Congress said Thursday.

While the Pentagon has already begun purchasing the planes, questions remain about the design, manufacturing and time frame for production, the Government Accountability Office, Congress' investigative arm, reported.

As a result, there is a "very significant risk" that the program, already saddled with a ballooning price and delays, could experience further cost increases and more missed deadlines, the GAO said. More problems could arise as the fighter is flight-tested.

Despite the hurdles for the fighter, Rep. Rob Bishop, R-Utah, says the Pentagon should remain committed to the program so the military has the technology "critical to our entire national defense."

"Whenever the next level of military hardware or technology is developed, there are going to be challenges. That doesn't mean we give up," Bishop said. "The F-35 represents the next level, and it is what will help us maintain air superiority - something we've taken for granted for probably too long." Designed as the centerpiece of the Pentagon's future air strike capability, the F-35 Lightning II has been put on an aggressive development and acquisition schedule. Along the way, the cost has increased dramatically from a projected $81 million per plane in 2001 to $112 million as of 2005.

The cost of the program has risen $19.8 billion since the GAO last reviewed the project one year ago.

In October, the Air Force announced that the 388th Fighter Wing at Hill Air Force Base would be one of the units selected as the home for operational squadrons of the F-35, pending completion of environmental analyses.

The GAO recommended that the Pentagon limit its future production to no more than 24 planes a year to reduce risk, but the Pentagon rejected that suggestion, saying a major design flaw is unlikely and the planes would cost more if the procurement is extended.

The Bush administration had planned to ask Congress to provide funds for two planes in the emergency war supplemental budget, but it later removed the money from the request, using it instead to fund a surge of troops in Iraq. It has also reduced the number of fighters in the 2008 budget.

Since the program began, the projected number of fighters the department plans to purchase has been scaled back from 2,998 to 2,458.

The fighter program is expected to cost, on average, $12.6 billion a year over the next 20 years. It will have to compete with other big-ticket defense programs, such as the missile defense system.

"Escalating costs are a by-product of delays in funding and cuts in the number of planes to be built," Bishop said. "But the bottom line is they need to be funded and built."

Source: The Salt Lake Tribune

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dwightlooi
PostPosted: Mar 16, 2007 - 04:29 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Total program cost numbers has very little to do with cost overruns of the program. They are projecting a cost of $276 billion for the program till 2027. That includes the inflation and dollar-value estimates for the next twenty years.

On the same note, we can say that there are a lot of cost overruns at Coca Cola, because we now expect a can of coke to cost $4 in 2027, when if fact $4 in 2027 may be $0.50 in 2007 dollars.
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elp
PostPosted: Mar 16, 2007 - 04:51 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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The jump up to $276 billion for the whole cost of the program is old news and considering what the JSF team did with the well run weight reduction program on the STOVL... I guess, not too bad. The program is solid in it's management.

GAO might need a bit of an update. Any REAL cost over-runs for the life of the program now fall in the lap of congress...who dramatically slowed down the rate of production. And cost issues should now be pointed direrctly at:

-Congress for the above mention
-The Administration, for getting us into Iraq. Iraq costs now drive the spending directions.

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PostPosted: Mar 16, 2007 - 07:12 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Look at it this way. To make a jet that pushes the limits of capability, you have to break a few eggs. If you could build exactly what you predicted without surprises, then you aren't pushing very hard. Goes with the territory.

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dwightlooi
PostPosted: Mar 16, 2007 - 08:53 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Roscoe wrote:
Look at it this way. To make a jet that pushes the limits of capability, you have to break a few eggs. If you could build exactly what you predicted without surprises, then you aren't pushing very hard. Goes with the territory.


Actually, there hasn't been any significant cost overruns at all even considering the redesign efforts circa 2004~2005. The reason program costs went up from 238 billion to 270-something billion was due to new inflation and dollar value estimates for the coming decades. In otherwords it has very little if anything to do with the program.

As of today, the unit cost estimate in 2006 dollars is still under or around $50 million. $48.5 million 2005 USD is around $20.4 million 1985 USD. If the dollar depreciates the same amount between between 2005 and 2025, we can expect $48.5 million to be $115.5 million in 2025 dollars. However, the current believe it is that it'll depreciate considerably more in the next 20 years than the previous 20. NONE of this has anything to do with cost overruns and none of it is within the control of a fighter program no matter how well run.
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fox100
PostPosted: Mar 16, 2007 - 08:58 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Roscoe wrote:
Look at it this way. To make a jet that pushes the limits of capability, you have to break a few eggs. If you could build exactly what you predicted without surprises, then you aren't pushing very hard. Goes with the territory.


Some planes that pushed the edge.... not in any order: X-15, XB-70, SR-71, F-22, F-117.... and more....

I see nothing that pushes the edge of aeronautical engineering in the F-35. It's a conventional looking plane, with performance/speed numbers that are quite less then when I was up and coming, altitudes are quite ordinary, take off and landing rolls are going to be quite conventional (except for USMC's fatcat), LO is not going to be as good as the F-22. The only ... one and only thing that makes the F-35 even potentially effective as an "F" designated aircraft is its enormously thirsty engine. Hm, ok what about materials? Nope nothing getting pushed to the edge there either: composites been used on other aircraft, the rest is tried and true aircraft grade aluminum recycled out of Campbells soup containers.

Now then, electronically whats getting pushed to the edge with the F-35? Its radar tech has been around for years, fly by wire been around for years, internal weapons bays been around since damned near forever. Helmet mounted targeting has been around for a long time now. Ok, it does have a kick a$$ cockpit panel. Big whoop, I actually saw a proto over 20 years ago at a MD display.

The F-35 pushes the edges on nothing of any importance to justify 100 million dollars per copy when its all said and done. The F-35 pushes the edges on nothing as its airframe, materials, electronics, engines are all derived from the F-22. The F-22, now that plane pushed the edges of aeronautical engineering... The F-35 is lesser capable single engined derivative that Lockheed was lucky because if Lockheed hadn't won the ATF its likely there'd be an entirely different a/c flying with the F-35 designation.
Crap, if the F-22 hadn't been cut to the bone there'd be IR stuff on that plane to be able to top the F-35 in that category.

Be very clear: the F-35 is only possible because of the ATF program some 20+ years ago.

Its hydraulic system is a pretty new type for airplanes... so it does have at least one itsy bitsy new piece of technology going into it.

What does a plane that flies under Mach 2.0 (in afterburner) and carries 2 bombs and 2 missiles at not so thrilling altitudes... what edge is getting pushed damn it? Even the AF admitted some years ago that if the F-35 had to take over for the F-22 in the air domination category then it would need to be completely redesigned. What does a plane that crusies around at the same speeds as the latest F-16s.. what edges are being pushed? Ok it carries more a2g stuff than the F-16 (on paper), but I bet you anything if you go filling up her wings with goodies then you may as well take an Strike Eagle to do the job because at least the Eagle has got a chance of fighting her way out if needed and the F-35 is going to be as LO as my house when her wings are jammed with heavy crap. So whats been pushed? Nothing.

The great god of commonality? We had that with the fabulous Phantoms and if the missiles were not so crappy back then, that we'd be building shrines to her today.

If anything the F-35 is an exercise in packaging and aircraft in catia. I'm sure they done very precises studies on how thin each panel can be built so as to minimize its weight... Big whoop. Ever seen a plane has had a near hit from a sam? So many planes made it back home in old days because they had the structural strength to take a pounding and keep on flying. We were dumb back then when we had to think with our brains and actually solve problems by using the grey matter between our ears. But by god if those planes were not rugged as hell. F-16s flying agressor missions are developing cracks... A friend of mine lost his backseater to a near hit one day when some jagged hot metal burst through the rear canopy and ended a young mans life.... But, the plane and pilot still made it home to fly another day (the pilot the very next day). Can we expect the same from the F-35? The F-35 is so tightly crammed and they've thinned the materials so much that one lucky shot from AAA or one near hit from a sam and the 35 is going to leave smoldering carbon fiber hole in the ground.

Ever wonder what the hell good is a 45,000 pound thrust engine in a plane dont even break Mach 2? It's because the design is an exercise in poor aerodynamics and so it can actually carry more pounds of bombs than a F-16 without needing afterburners lit to keep from losing altitude and hitting the side of a hill.

Jesus good god, if 45,000 pound thrust engines were around for fighters 40 years ago... Look at the performance numbers from those old relics that were lucky to have close to 20k pounds. Look at the numbers on the early F-15s which had not that much more thrust (combined) than what the F-35 is going to have from ONE engine. Where are the 35's numbers? Pretty darned average aren't they? Aint going to be breaking and speed runs or altitude records anytime soon.

Nothing is getting pushed to the edge on the F-35. As with all airplanes they're behind the 8 ball on electronic goodies because the industry moves so damned fast... So I propose to you that not even the computer tech going into her is breaking any edges at all. Its tried and true and a lot of it is sitting on shelves this day.

Can the F-35 engage more aerial targets than any other plane flying today? Nope. Nothing is getting pushed there like with the Tomcat 30 years ago.

Nothing is getting pushed anywhere on the plane. The only thing getting pushed is a lot bs and hype and the price is getting pushed up higher and higher.

Like the saying goes: don't piss on my back and tell me its raining.
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Caprice
PostPosted: Mar 16, 2007 - 09:05 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Roscoe wrote:
Look at it this way. To make a jet that pushes the limits of capability, you have to break a few eggs. If you could build exactly what you predicted without surprises, then you aren't pushing very hard. Goes with the territory.

I´m glad it´s not my eggs. Smile The latest estimated tot. program cost increase was $19 billion. Next month Congress will have DOD latest numbers, if there is anything abnormal there i´m sure we will here about it.

BTW here´s the GAO report: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d07360.pdf

Regards C.
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idesof
PostPosted: Mar 16, 2007 - 10:06 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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fox100 wrote:
Like the saying goes: don't piss on my back and tell me its raining.


A fox by any other name... Once again, welcome back, FireFox. I was beginning to miss your rants until I read them again and realized that you copy-paste the same rant over and over again. At least you're consistent.

At any rate, it's don't piss down my leg and tell me it's raining. The whole pissing on the back thing is for you to know and for me NOT to find out. Creepy.
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idesof
PostPosted: Mar 16, 2007 - 10:08 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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"The GAO called for a 24-a-year production cap until each of the three planned F-35 variants have demonstrated "basic flying qualities" in flight tests through 2010. But the Pentagon, in a strong endorsement of the F-35, defended its acquisition strategy and said the program will continue to ramp up toward full-rate production of at least 240 a year by 2014."

So much for the whole only 40 aircraft per year throughout the life of the program BS that was perpetrated around here a while ago... Rolling Eyes
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beepa
PostPosted: Mar 17, 2007 - 12:21 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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in australia we have a federal election this year,if the current government loses[which is 50/50]then the new guys have said they dont want the f35 or the superbugs and may launch an enquiry why our prime minister didnt follow the already in place tender process[air 6000]but dropped the bombshell about the f35 after he had a holiday and visited loch mart...i wonder how many dollars went into his pocket!.. the opposition believes,as do many in defence that the raptor is the way to go[if its allowed out of the candy shop]all r watchin the japs with great interest in their bid for mighty raptor
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dwightlooi
PostPosted: Mar 17, 2007 - 01:48 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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A few things...

(1) The F-35 is NOT $100 million a copy. It is $50~$62 million a copy depending on the variant in today's dollars. In 2025 dollars, the F-22 may be $900 milllion a copy and an F-15 may be $300 million and an F-35 may be $200 million, but that doesn't matter at all.

(2) The F-35 is structurally one of the most incredible feats of engineering ever, so saying that it doesn't push the boundary is ridiculous. Why is it incredible? Because it is extremely light that is why. The F-35 is a 12~13 ton aircraft. About 1 full ton lighter than an F-18E for instance. Despite that, it carries roughly 50% more fuel than the F-18E, has essentially the same amount of thrust and it has two massive internal weapons bay that swallows a pair of 2000 pounders and a pair of AMRAAMs. And, it does so while also having the provisions for a lift fan, roll post and pivoting engine nozzle to support a STOVL variant. Compared to an F-16, the F-35 offers 2.5x the combat radius with very low observables and the most sophisticated and comprehensive sensor suite in the world, and it does so with no degradation in combat flight performance. Lastly, it is able to do so while keeping unit costs at essentially the same level as advanced F-16 or F-18 fighters available today.
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Roscoe
PostPosted: Mar 17, 2007 - 03:41 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Don't waste your time. "Fox" won't listen to anyone and constatnyly harps on "facts" that have no basisi in reality. I've learned, once he enters the merge,...extend. He ain't worth the gas or the bullets.

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PostPosted: Mar 17, 2007 - 04:37 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Roscoe,

Sure, but the meaningless release of hot air reminds me that its "Sometimes it is entirely appropriate to kill a fly with a sledge-hammer!" - MAJ. Holdredge - USMC

A couple of better sayings for him to slow down and think about:

“On the edge of destiny, you must test your strength.” - Billy Bishop

"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; For he today that sheds his blood with me Shall be my brother." - Shakespeare

"Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato
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Meathook
PostPosted: Mar 20, 2007 - 02:02 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Quote:
Fighter efforts show need for Raptor, JSF buys, Wynne says

By Michael Fabey, Aerospace Daily & Defense Report
03/20/2007


Greater Russian and Chinese efforts to sell their so-called fifth-generation fighter planes provide another example of why the U.S. Air Force needs to stick to its stated purchases of the F-22 Raptor and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), said Michael Wynne, Air Force secretary.

Speaking about the Russian and Chinese efforts, Wynne said, "They see what we're doing. "The so-called Chinese fifth-generation variant, Wynne pointed out, "looks like a European Tornado."

As for the Russian Sukhoi entries, "We have great respect for that," Wynne said March 19 at a breakfast speech on Capitol Hill.

The Russians and Chinese are attempting to shop the aircraft on the international market to countries like India.

Sukhoi are known for their so-called "Cobra" maneuvers at international air shows - where the aircraft slows and the nose comes up and nearly backward before quickly striking downward, like a snake strike.

During an in-flight demonstration for the DAILY in the fall, the Air Force showed the Raptor could also do the same maneuver.

But it's stealth, speed, precision and special radar capability that makes fifth-generation fighters, Wynne said. And, he added, the Air Force doesn't want to go back to its fourth-generation aircraft. That's why the service included the three JSFs, for about $180 million each, in its emergency supplemental requests.

The Air Force has lost aircraft in war operations and needs to replace them, Wynne said. But the service doesn't want the F-16s being made for the United Arab Emirates or the F-15s being made for Korea. There are not running lines for those aircraft suitable for American needs, he said.

Thus, the supplemental requests for the new aircraft, which have been denied.

The Air Force is fighting another battle for its F-22s. While the Pentagon has capped the buy at 183 aircraft, the service says it needs 381 - a number Wynne emphasized again March 19. The service has now bought 83, he said.

The aircraft are needed to replace previous stealthy aircraft such as B-2s and F-117s, which are dwindling in numbers or being retired.

Part of the reason for the larger buy, Wynne said, is to help keep the fifth-generation line running until the F-35s start being produced. The Air Force plans to buy 1,763 JSFs. "But we're not sure our arguments will be heard," he said. Wynne said he simply lacks the money to buy the number of aircraft he needs and wants to buy every year.

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