F-16 Reference
5th Gen Fighters
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elp
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Posted: Mar 14, 2007 - 03:09 PM
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F-16.net Editor

Joined: Sep 23, 2003
Posts: 2862
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Here you go. Until operation useless dirt is completed, expect more of the same. Expect to see traditional big mil hardware manufacturers to create anti-war / "bring the troops home" posters and hit the streets en masse. Their big hardware gravy train is being upset.
Quote:
White House Trades New Weapons for Troop Support
NewsMax.com Wires
Tuesday, March 13, 2007
WASHINGTON -- The White House plans to shift $3.2 billion in defense spending - partly from new weapons like the Lockheed Martin Corp. F-35 Joint Strike Fighter - to support troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, a trade publication reported on Monday.
In a letter to Congress detailing revised plans for its fiscal 2007 emergency wartime spending request, the White House said it would reduce spending on three aircraft programs by $923 million, freeing up money for armor kits and transport vehicles needed by U.S. troops.
The letter was obtained and released by insidefense.com on Monday.
"Items . . . that have been used as offsets have been deemed less timely or lower priorities than those in the current request," said the letter from the White House Office of Management and Budget.
It said it would remove $388 million for five Lockheed C-130J transport planes; $146 million for one CV-22 tilt-rotor aircraft built by Boeing Co. and Bell Helicopter, a unit of Textron Inc.; and $389 million for Lockheed F-35s.
Instead, it would spend an additional $1.5 billion on armor kits and transport vehicles, including $500 million for Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles, the newest generation of tactical vehicles designed to protect troops against mines and roadside bombs.
General Dynamics Corp. has already won a contract for some of the new vehicles, but Britain's BAE Systems Plc and Armor Holdings are also in line to get orders for the new vehicles, said defense analyst Loren Thompson of the Virginia-based Lexington Institute.
Thompson said the proposed changes confirmed defense industry fears that money was beginning to flow out of weapons programs and into personnel and other near term needs.
He said it also marked a reversal of the Pentagon's decision last fall to include all the costs of the global war on terror in its supplemental funding request.
"What these changes show is the tug back and forth between near-term needs and long-term moderation, and as usual, near-term needs are winning out," Thompson said.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/article ... 2341.shtml
My opinion it will be a higher figure siphoned off as the Walter Reed debacle and some other things. |
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Posted: Nov 18, 2008 - 5:37 PM
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elp
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Posted: Mar 14, 2007 - 07:38 PM
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F-16.net Editor

Joined: Sep 23, 2003
Posts: 2862
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It's just starting to sink in to me how long USAF will be using F-15s and F-16s.
Think of using a P-51 up till about the 1980's.....
OK... something a little closer. Think if we still used F-100's .... or used F-4s till 2010...
My prediction is that even with fancy upgrades.... and how the military industrial complex hates buying spare parts... I don't even want to think of what F-15s and F-16s operating in the year 2015 or 2020 will be like with the procurement holidays that unfortenately happen with spares. Not a pretty picture.
This dramatic slow down in JSF production will kill us. Suddenly building more F15s and F-16s ( An F-15K like jet and a USAF inspired Block 6x jet ) as gap fillers doesn't sound like such a bad idea. But hell, we don't even have money for that. We are screwed. |
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fox100
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Posted: Mar 14, 2007 - 09:33 PM
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Enthusiast

Joined: Mar 13, 2007
Posts: 98
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elp wrote:
It's just starting to sink in to me how long USAF will be using F-15s and F-16s.
Think of using a P-51 up till about the 1980's.....
OK... something a little closer. Think if we still used F-100's .... or used F-4s till 2010...
My prediction is that even with fancy upgrades.... and how the military industrial complex hates buying spare parts... I don't even want to think of what F-15s and F-16s operating in the year 2015 or 2020 will be like with the procurement holidays that unfortenately happen with spares. Not a pretty picture.
This dramatic slow down in JSF production will kill us. Suddenly building more F15s and F-16s ( An F-15K like jet and a USAF inspired Block 6x jet ) as gap fillers doesn't sound like such a bad idea. But hell, we don't even have money for that. We are screwed.
Anyone who follows defense spending/cuts should not be surprised to learn that the F-35 is *just* *another* ripe target for slashing. Anyone who thinks the good ol' USA is going to get some 2000 F-35s isn't living in reality. If the program actually survives for the duration, then realistically you should only expect about 1200 (or less) total over the life of the program. Thats 1200 split between the 3 air forces of the US. (Oh and yeah they're still gonna spend the $ to expand it's internal missile load and oh yeah its still going to cost less a current build F-15... right....)
Much like the Buff expect to see son, father, grandfather combinations who all flew the F-15/16's.
The writing's on the wall for all who can read. Its a dismal state of affairs for my Air Force and my country. |
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elp
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Posted: Mar 15, 2007 - 12:20 AM
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F-16.net Editor

Joined: Sep 23, 2003
Posts: 2862
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I think what you say is true or close to it.
Trust no one Mr. Moulder.  |
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idesof
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Posted: Mar 15, 2007 - 01:40 PM
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Forum Veteran

Joined: May 29, 2006
Posts: 640
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elp wrote:
Here you go. Until operation useless dirt is completed, expect more of the same. Expect to see traditional big mil hardware manufacturers to create anti-war / "bring the troops home" posters and hit the streets en masse. Their big hardware gravy train is being upset.
Quote:
White House Trades New Weapons for Troop Support
NewsMax.com Wires
Tuesday, March 13, 2007
WASHINGTON -- The White House plans to shift $3.2 billion in defense spending - partly from new weapons like the Lockheed Martin Corp. F-35 Joint Strike Fighter - to support troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, a trade publication reported on Monday.
In a letter to Congress detailing revised plans for its fiscal 2007 emergency wartime spending request, the White House said it would reduce spending on three aircraft programs by $923 million, freeing up money for armor kits and transport vehicles needed by U.S. troops.
The letter was obtained and released by insidefense.com on Monday.
"Items . . . that have been used as offsets have been deemed less timely or lower priorities than those in the current request," said the letter from the White House Office of Management and Budget.
It said it would remove $388 million for five Lockheed C-130J transport planes; $146 million for one CV-22 tilt-rotor aircraft built by Boeing Co. and Bell Helicopter, a unit of Textron Inc.; and $389 million for Lockheed F-35s.
Instead, it would spend an additional $1.5 billion on armor kits and transport vehicles, including $500 million for Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles, the newest generation of tactical vehicles designed to protect troops against mines and roadside bombs.
General Dynamics Corp. has already won a contract for some of the new vehicles, but Britain's BAE Systems Plc and Armor Holdings are also in line to get orders for the new vehicles, said defense analyst Loren Thompson of the Virginia-based Lexington Institute.
Thompson said the proposed changes confirmed defense industry fears that money was beginning to flow out of weapons programs and into personnel and other near term needs.
He said it also marked a reversal of the Pentagon's decision last fall to include all the costs of the global war on terror in its supplemental funding request.
"What these changes show is the tug back and forth between near-term needs and long-term moderation, and as usual, near-term needs are winning out," Thompson said.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/article ... 2341.shtml
My opinion it will be a higher figure siphoned off as the Walter Reed debacle and some other things.
Okay, people, let's not get TOO upset here. We're talking about the supplemental budget, where the USAF tried to sneak in an extra two or three F-35s beyond those in the regular budget. That is, of course, until McCain, perhaps rightly, had a hissy fit about it. I have to agree that war supplemental budgets should be used to fund your war, and not what you'd like to have, say, five years from now. Very, very naughty on the part of the USAF, if you ask me... |
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mcashe
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Posted: Mar 15, 2007 - 02:03 PM
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Enthusiast

Joined: Jul 21, 2004
Posts: 27
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| I'm an advocate of the JSF and I have to agree that the AF tried to sneak one in there. They knew that money was meant for here and now not for future weapons systems |
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elp
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Posted: Mar 15, 2007 - 02:49 PM
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F-16.net Editor

Joined: Sep 23, 2003
Posts: 2862
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idesof wrote:
elp wrote:
Here you go. Until operation useless dirt is completed, expect more of the same. Expect to see traditional big mil hardware manufacturers to create anti-war / "bring the troops home" posters and hit the streets en masse. Their big hardware gravy train is being upset.
Quote:
White House Trades New Weapons for Troop Support
NewsMax.com Wires
Tuesday, March 13, 2007
WASHINGTON -- The White House plans to shift $3.2 billion in defense spending - partly from new weapons like the Lockheed Martin Corp. F-35 Joint Strike Fighter - to support troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, a trade publication reported on Monday.
In a letter to Congress detailing revised plans for its fiscal 2007 emergency wartime spending request, the White House said it would reduce spending on three aircraft programs by $923 million, freeing up money for armor kits and transport vehicles needed by U.S. troops.
The letter was obtained and released by insidefense.com on Monday.
"Items . . . that have been used as offsets have been deemed less timely or lower priorities than those in the current request," said the letter from the White House Office of Management and Budget.
It said it would remove $388 million for five Lockheed C-130J transport planes; $146 million for one CV-22 tilt-rotor aircraft built by Boeing Co. and Bell Helicopter, a unit of Textron Inc.; and $389 million for Lockheed F-35s.
Instead, it would spend an additional $1.5 billion on armor kits and transport vehicles, including $500 million for Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles, the newest generation of tactical vehicles designed to protect troops against mines and roadside bombs.
General Dynamics Corp. has already won a contract for some of the new vehicles, but Britain's BAE Systems Plc and Armor Holdings are also in line to get orders for the new vehicles, said defense analyst Loren Thompson of the Virginia-based Lexington Institute.
Thompson said the proposed changes confirmed defense industry fears that money was beginning to flow out of weapons programs and into personnel and other near term needs.
He said it also marked a reversal of the Pentagon's decision last fall to include all the costs of the global war on terror in its supplemental funding request.
"What these changes show is the tug back and forth between near-term needs and long-term moderation, and as usual, near-term needs are winning out," Thompson said.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/article ... 2341.shtml
My opinion it will be a higher figure siphoned off as the Walter Reed debacle and some other things.
Okay, people, let's not get TOO upset here. We're talking about the supplemental budget, where the USAF tried to sneak in an extra two or three F-35s beyond those in the regular budget. That is, of course, until McCain, perhaps rightly, had a hissy fit about it. I have to agree that war supplemental budgets should be used to fund your war, and not what you'd like to have, say, five years from now. Very, very naughty on the part of the USAF, if you ask me...
Yes that is correct. However....the regular budget slashed JSF production too. Now, with JSF production slowed down, we would have to buy JSF well to 2040 for USAF to get the numbers it wants. This forces us to pull a rabbit out of our hat and do more upgrades to F-15s and F-16s that we didn't want to do. Pushing those jets ot 2025-30. Expect more of the same given our current ops tempo spending. What the next regular budget looks like could be troubling. |
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habu2
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Posted: Mar 15, 2007 - 03:36 PM
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Elite 2K

Joined: Sep 05, 2003
Posts: 2804
Location: ACES II
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idesof wrote:
Okay, people, let's not get TOO upset here. We're talking about the supplemental budget, where the USAF tried to sneak in an extra two or three F-35s beyond those in the regular budget. That is, of course, until McCain, perhaps rightly, had a hissy fit about it. I have to agree that war supplemental budgets should be used to fund your war, and not what you'd like to have, say, five years from now. Very, very naughty on the part of the USAF, if you ask me...
Yeah, right. I'm pretty damned upset over it. In fact I'll be out of a job as of this time next month just because of it.
I'll just bide my time in the unemployment line thanking W that Iraq now has a democracy.... not.
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_________________ Reality Is For People Who Can't Handle Simulation
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Otto
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Posted: Mar 15, 2007 - 03:50 PM
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Active Member

Joined: May 06, 2005
Posts: 113
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What a democracy!!, hundreds are dying every day....
So are we going to pay more for F35 in this case or have it in around 2020 for the US to keep up the troops for nothing??? |
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idesof
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Posted: Mar 15, 2007 - 04:15 PM
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Forum Veteran

Joined: May 29, 2006
Posts: 640
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Otto wrote:
What a democracy!!, hundreds are dying every day....
So are we going to pay more for F35 in this case or have it in around 2020 for the US to keep up the troops for nothing???
Damn, where is Raptor_One when you need him, claiming that whomever is against the war is just a partisan hack, or a Dick Cheney, who says all of us who don't much care whether Iraq is a democracy or a smoking hole in the ground are aiding "the terrorists." All I can tell you is that if a Democrat were president, and he had led us down this path, I would be just as pissed off. At least LBJ had the decency to not run for office for a second term.
Anyway, it does suck that for the sake of this war so we can liberate people who aparently never wanted to be "liberated" in the first place we have lost thousans of troops, have hand tens of thousands wounded, and have very little money left over to buy the equipment we need to replace the one that is very quickly nearing obsolescence. |
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mcashe
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Posted: Mar 15, 2007 - 06:07 PM
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Enthusiast

Joined: Jul 21, 2004
Posts: 27
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| I work for Lockheed not in the Aero division but I can tell you the company as a whole is feeling the effects of this war. Several programs are being downsized because funding is being scaled back. Furthermore, programs that we are bidding on such as GPS III are being pushed back as well. A winner was supposed to be announced at least 2 years ago. They'll finally get around to it this August. |
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habu2
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Posted: Mar 15, 2007 - 07:41 PM
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Elite 2K

Joined: Sep 05, 2003
Posts: 2804
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Not to mention cuts in education, cuts in health care, etc.  |
_________________ Reality Is For People Who Can't Handle Simulation
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dwightlooi
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Posted: Mar 15, 2007 - 07:58 PM
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Joined: Aug 01, 2006
Posts: 1003
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habu2 wrote:
Not to mention cuts in education, cuts in health care, etc.
Thats GOOD! Government should stay out of social services. Both education and healthcare should be 100% private. |
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fox100
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Posted: Mar 15, 2007 - 08:10 PM
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Joined: Mar 13, 2007
Posts: 98
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Ok, it hit me today and let me say that I am shocked and dismayed. The liberal nut-job-anti-defense-nuts have not picked up on the fact that the F-35 as_of_today costs $190,000,000 per copy. My god in heaven, they were all over the B-2 and the F-22 in their infancy for costing what they cost.
My god in heaven, it must be a sign of the impending apocalypse that no one's crying how much the F-35's currently cost. One-hundred-and-ninety-million dollars each: we need to cancel this program now and spend it on the rain forrests, immediately.
Where are all the nut jobs at? |
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idesof
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Posted: Mar 15, 2007 - 08:23 PM
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Forum Veteran

Joined: May 29, 2006
Posts: 640
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fox100 wrote:
Ok, it hit me today and let me say that I am shocked and dismayed. The liberal nut-job-anti-defense-nuts have not picked up on the fact that the F-35 as_of_today costs $190,000,000 per copy. My god in heaven, they were all over the B-2 and the F-22 in their infancy for costing what they cost.
My god in heaven, it must be a sign of the impending apocalypse that no one's crying how much the F-35's currently cost. One-hundred-and-ninety-million dollars each: we need to cancel this program now and spend it on the rain forrests, immediately.
Where are all the nut jobs at?
Welcome back FireFox! I like your new name! Gee, if you go back to say, 1974, and figure out how much the first F-15s cost off the line, in REAL DOLLARS, I wonder how much they would cost? I think you'd be surprised... |
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