Forum: F-16 versus XYZ

It would be interesting to see the two do a sim dogfight at nellis with pods attached and equally rated pilots and see what one would win.

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Actually, Faasen, the Rafale delivred to the Armée de l'Air for 2006 is the F2 standard, the F3 will arrive for 2008, and, as far as I know, the F4 isn't exactely planned, but could be adopted in 2010+ (upgraded engines M88-4 with more than 100kN each (full ab), upgraded SPECTRA, maybe an upgraded radar (AESA)). Just in time for the JSF ! Razz

Has anybody heard about the Rafale victory against a USAF's F15 ? There's a rumor on another forum... But I can't check the information... Rolling Eyes

I heard that the JSF is so fat as a turkey for thank giving day!! The Dutch goverment made a bad decission going for the JSF. Typhoon or Rafale would be a beter choice. Also good for the european aircraft industry...

But the F-16 still rocks!!

yeah but with 40,000 lbs of thrust even a fat turkey will fly!! http://www.pratt-whitney.com/prod_mil_f135.asp. BTW the Rafale is better then the 16 in almost every aspect, a better match would be a mirage 200 Vs 16. remember the 16 is nearing 25+ years. but we have THOUSANDS of then VS less then a Hundred Rafales!!! after the first merge with the really go fast guys in the F-15's the 16's should have no problems mopping up the 4 or 5 rafale straglers. *L* BTW I think the Rafale is a sweet preforming and looking aircraft. and it has TWO engines!! and semi-confermal weapons carrage. something the 16 lacks!! can you say HIGH drag!!!

You are talking about two light weight airframes with one having more tech. Over the other, the Rafale is more technologicaly advanced and I think it is more maneuverable, but what the F-16 lacks, it makes up with speed, accuracy and versatility.

Except for stealth, the Rafale is broadly comparable to a small F/A-22 without thrust vectoring in terms of flight dynamics, very low wing loading, good specific excess power in dry and afterburning thrust, quite good internal fuel fraction, excellent glass cockpit. I'm ignorant on relative strengths of missle engagement envolopes, although I heard MICA can be used down to 500m. As much as I love the Viper, its an unfair match i'm afraid. Unless the -16 has JHMDS.

From the articles I've read on the net, the new generation aircraft would win against the older fighters such as the F-16.

In air superiority the EF2000 should win against the Rafale as it was built to be an airsuperiority plane. The Rafale is more of a multi-purpose fighter, that is it is very good every where but not the best at any tasks.

As far as the F22 is concern, it does not have any real rival. It is stealthy and very agile.

Its aim is to shoot its ennemy from as far away as possible. In dog fight it should not be much better than the other new aircrafts (athough a little bit) but it was never meant to do that. I love the F22 it looks cool, it is like looking at a starwars movie.

As long as the radars don't improve it will be the best plane on the market.
Its only problem is the cost, the day there is a radar that detects it, it might be difficult to justify its cost.

So far we have not seen any maneuvre of an F-22 that a MiG/SU, Rafale is unable to do.
Supercruise is really fine, but YF-22 only made Mach 1,23 with 153kn, the new version is told to make Mach 1,5, but well, a stage 3 EF-2000 will do it also. Rafale's greatest weakness is its low thrust, maybe they improve it too.
No one knows what this new MiG/SU cooperative T-55 will be like, it features a 20t engine Al-41F from the MiG 1.42.

So F-22 will not be the only plane that super-cruises. Why is its top speed only Mach 1.8?

Stealth? I dont really believe in that. I heared from some trouble during Allied force when B-2A suddenly appeared on german radars....
Futhermore F-22 does not look as stealthy as YF-23 or B-2.

It is not stealthy!! Only much harder to see on radar.

The YF-23 was much faster (mach 2+) and much stealthier than the F-22. The YF-23 was over designed. I would love to see the YF-23 come back. (wishful thinking.. Sad

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CheckSix, I wouldn't believe anything they state publicly about F-22 top speed. It's too new and they won't say anything real about that. I was at Nellis and got to see the Raptor fly. They did a nice, long full burner takeoff, but no zoom climb or anything. It was fairly cold (about 55 degrees fahrenheit), so the temp was right for a nice vertical climb. They only did medium altitude flat passes with really wide turns so as not to give up any capabilities in the demo. Last, but not least, they had one raptor on static display for you to take pictures of and they taxied the demo jet down the crowd line, but even though the other jets were really close to the static area, they wouldn't allow any pictures of them (I did before they warned me) because of the fear of pics with open panels. If they're going to go to these lengths at an airshow for OPSEC, I don't think they're going to publish reliable info. A while back, I saw somewhere that the max speed was "classified, but in excess of Mach 2.0"

Well the dang thing can go really fast without the burners lit, heat it up and I bet it is even faster. We are having an Airshow on 23 April, chances are one will be here and my Boss is in charge of it so I may get to take a close peak at it.

EriktheF-16462,
I've said this before to some other people, but I'll say it to you. YOU LUCKY &^%$ !!! OK, so I'm a bit jealous Wink

. Seriously, I hope you have fun! Love the post - perfect Laughing

!!! Happy new year, too!

Even more, I just got told the chances are very good, in fact better than the Raptor that a JSF will be here.

My assumtion for F-22s top speed is about Mach 2.02. Due physical limitations, because it has no "ramps" to control the airflow. But fair enough, supercruise is much more important.
Mach 1,5 is a good feature, but i believe a Su-37 does Mach 1,3 on mil, I gues not with the full payload.

I don't know what the airshow was like, but I remember the first appearance of the EF 2000 at Berlin in 1996? Program was limited and MiG-29 did a much better show. Nowadays EF's display is simply stunning, it is doing the whole show within the runway length and most of the maneurves are highly vertical without pause or repositioning between. This shows the potential of the aircraft in comparison to F-16s and MiG-29s and Mirage 2000. Have not seen Rafale yet.

TC, now you're pushing it with the JSF! Please send pics!

CheckSix, I haven't seen an EF2000, but after 28 years of airshows (still haven't missed a year at Miramar), I can tell you that the F-14, 15, 16, and 18 can all put on a great show! I've seen all of these jets go from high alpha, low airspeed (especially the 18 ) into a nearly pure vertical climb just by lighting the pipes. Man is that cool! There's something almost supernatural about it when you see a Viper or Hornet go from slow to fast and do it straight up!

Forum: F-16 versus XYZ

F-16 versus Rafale