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Enthusiast Joined: Aug 02, 2006 Posts: 62 Status: Offline

But as far as I have read all the replies about accelerating when climbing and it is actually difficult to achieve. Even the F/A-22 Raptor struggles with that. Or am I completely wrong?

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Enthusiast Joined: Oct 18, 2007 Posts: 28 Status: Offline

_Viper_ wrote:

But as far as I have read all the replies about accelerating when climbing and it is actually difficult to achieve. Even the F/A-22 Raptor struggles with that. Or am I completely wrong?

My guess is he flipped them "on" right before pitching downward...

Or am I completely wrong? Laughing

Quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5D4F0G4aIuU there are definitely afterburners on. At 0:36 shows that clearly.

Yes, after it had already "stalled" and was accelerating out of it. The ability to climb straight up while accelerating is hardly unique to the Raptor. It's not worth arguing about.

Obamanite wrote:

That beast generates some 80,000 lbs. of thrust, and that's sea level static. A certain pilot in a certain board also talked about climbing pretty much straight up and breaking 60,000 feet going past Mach 2 while having to ease up on the burner lest he, well, literally burned the plane...

Who was that? Shocked

_Viper_ wrote:

Obamanite wrote:

Dude, if you look at the F-22 when it supposedly "stalls" going straight up, do you notice something? Yes, that's right, no afterburners. If the F-16 could and can accelerate going straight up, the F-22 can do so in spades. That beast generates some 80,000 lbs. of thrust, and that's sea level static. A certain pilot in a certain board also talked about climbing pretty much straight up and breaking 60,000 feet going past Mach 2 while having to ease up on the burner lest he, well, literally burned the plane...

Erhm in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5D4F0G4aIuU there are definitely afterburners on. At 0:36 shows that clearly.

I think that's the engine core running hot (perhaps he was at mil) or else the first stage of afterburner. In full afterburner you'd be able to see the flame come out of the nozzle.

This is true afterburner:

Enthusiast Joined: Sep 28, 2006 Posts: 59 Status: Offline

The Su-35 as I've ever seen, can raise AoA over 120 degrees but still recovery, whereas I've never seen F-22 did Cobra over 90 degrees. Why?

Enthusiast Joined: Oct 18, 2007 Posts: 28 Status: Offline

end wrote:

The Su-35 as I've ever seen, can raise AoA over 120 degrees but still recovery, whereas I've never seen F-22 did Cobra over 90 degrees. Why?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeczZtRLFZc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrBx6G2O6A4 (1:04 - 1:16)

Both of those clearly go beyond 90°.

In the second video @ 0:38-0:47, I don't recall ever seeing an SU "hold" a cobra for that long.

And BTW, when you see an SU do one of its "famous" backflips, you can never be certain if that was the intended maneuver, or a botched ultra-high angle cobra. Wink

Enthusiast Joined: Sep 28, 2006 Posts: 59 Status: Offline

em745 wrote:

end wrote:

The Su-35 as I've ever seen, can raise AoA over 120 degrees but still recovery, whereas I've never seen F-22 did Cobra over 90 degrees. Why?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeczZtRLFZc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrBx6G2O6A4 (1:04 - 1:16)

Both of those clearly go beyond 90°.

In the second video @ 0:38-0:47, I don't recall ever seeing an SU "hold" a cobra for that long.

Really?
Even Rafale can do it
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=oEMKO6Y86mg

Enthusiast Joined: Oct 18, 2007 Posts: 28 Status: Offline

end wrote:

em745 wrote:

end wrote:

The Su-35 as I've ever seen, can raise AoA over 120 degrees but still recovery, whereas I've never seen F-22 did Cobra over 90 degrees. Why?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeczZtRLFZc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrBx6G2O6A4 (1:04 - 1:16)

Both of those clearly go beyond 90°.

In the second video @ 0:38-0:47, I don't recall ever seeing an SU "hold" a cobra for that long.

Really?
Even Rafale can do it
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=oEMKO6Y86mg

1. We weren't talking about the Rafale.

2. Where's the cobra in that video?

3. By cobra did you mean the [sorta] high AoA pass at 1:41-2:05? If so, then it's NOT the same thing.

Enthusiast Joined: Mar 24, 2007 Posts: 47 Status: Offline

end wrote:

em745 wrote:

end wrote:

The Su-35 as I've ever seen, can raise AoA over 120 degrees but still recovery, whereas I've never seen F-22 did Cobra over 90 degrees. Why?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeczZtRLFZc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrBx6G2O6A4 (1:04 - 1:16)

Both of those clearly go beyond 90°.

In the second video @ 0:38-0:47, I don't recall ever seeing an SU "hold" a cobra for that long.

Really?
Even Rafale can do it
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=oEMKO6Y86mg

Well, apparantly it cannot...nothing even remotely resembling a Cobra in that video. Nice display though - it changes direction very quickly and looks pretty nimble.

em745 wrote:

end wrote:

The Su-35 as I've ever seen, can raise AoA over 120 degrees but still recovery, whereas I've never seen F-22 did Cobra over 90 degrees. Why?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeczZtRLFZc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrBx6G2O6A4 (1:04 - 1:16)

Both of those clearly go beyond 90°.

In the second video @ 0:38-0:47, I don't recall ever seeing an SU "hold" a cobra for that long.

And BTW, when you see an SU do one of its "famous" backflips, you can never be certain if that was the intended maneuver, or a botched ultra-high angle cobra. Wink

I mentioned earlier the Raptor's ability to almost literally turn on a dime, which I consider its most impressive maneuverability feature. This is just insane:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo65qpEd ... re=related

biffbutkus wrote:

end wrote:

em745 wrote:

end wrote:

The Su-35 as I've ever seen, can raise AoA over 120 degrees but still recovery, whereas I've never seen F-22 did Cobra over 90 degrees. Why?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeczZtRLFZc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrBx6G2O6A4 (1:04 - 1:16)

Both of those clearly go beyond 90°.

In the second video @ 0:38-0:47, I don't recall ever seeing an SU "hold" a cobra for that long.

Really?
Even Rafale can do it
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=oEMKO6Y86mg

Well, apparantly it cannot...nothing even remotely resembling a Cobra in that video. Nice display though - it changes direction very quickly and looks pretty nimble.

No cobra, but very, very impressive. Love how dynamic the routine is, far more so than the Raptor's, which takes forever and a day to transition from one maneuver to the other. The Rafale's is just TIGHT, with one impressive maneuver transitioning seamlessly to another. And, it must be said, the Rafale would totally smoke a Viper in a dogfight. Not even close. Also, figures the French would make the prettiest of the new fighters. It really is a gorgeous design, and gives the Viper a run for its money in that department.

No cobra, but very, very impressive. Love how dynamic the routine is, far more so than the Raptor's, which takes forever and a day to transition from one maneuver to the other. The Rafale's is just TIGHT, with one impressive maneuver transitioning seamlessly to another. And, it must be said, the Rafale would totally smoke a Viper in a dogfight. Not even close. Also, figures the French would make the prettiest of the new fighters. It really is a gorgeous design, and gives the Viper a run for its money in that department.[/quote]

Well I don't know much about all the maneuvers yall talk about so I been watching these links the last few weeks posted on the various diff a/c. In that one here with the Rafael it does seem to be constantly in a turn or climb or something. Problem is it just doesn't seem to be doing anything while its nonstop making maneuvers. Kind of like a politician talking nonstop, but never saying anything.

As for the F22 it seems to fly straight and level and say *watch this!!*. And then it makes some dang outrageous turn or climb that I don't see any of the others doing to the degree it does it. And in most case, not even in the same league. Some of the turns it is making look as if it is turning so hard and so tight, the plane should literally snap in half. And when it does that back flip it appears to literally go from straight up to over backwards and straight down in no more distance then the lenght of the a/c. Those 2 things seem to really stand up and catch the eye of someone that has not been watching airshows of military a/c for a hobby.

That's my observation anyhow.

Beazz

Enthusiast Joined: Oct 18, 2007 Posts: 28 Status: Offline

Yes, like others have said, the Raffy does put on a nice show... Certainly seems to me to be as "nimble" as the Tiffy, giving up only a bit of T/W (on paper), which might not matter all that much in the real world.

As for the Raptor demo, it's been said that the perceived lack of "dynamism" is deliberate, in an effort to make it more unique, and to concentrate more on the post-stall stuff. That said, I have noticed lately that the routine has gotten a bit "artsier." The first demos were good (and certainly unique), but they were also... I don't know... too technical and, shall we say, "sterile" in their presentation. Nowadays there's more "fluff"--more variation, more barrel rolls in between and during key maneuvers. None of this fluff is really "unique," nor does it do anything to help showcase the Raptor's unique capabilities. But the artsier choreography DOES make for a more complete and visually enjoyable demo (which is key in an airshow setting). I mean, just think of how more mundane (mundaner??) a figure skating routing would be if it were just a handful of jumps and spins, with plain old straight skating in between.

BTW, do any of the aero experts on here know whether the euro-canards are actually capable of performing cobras and other post-stall maneuvers? Somehow I just can't see a Tiffy performing a >90° cobra, or a tail slide.

My Two Cents

. As always, YMMV.

Enthusiast Joined: Mar 24, 2007 Posts: 47 Status: Offline

Obamanite wrote:

biffbutkus wrote:

end wrote:

em745 wrote:

end wrote:

The Su-35 as I've ever seen, can raise AoA over 120 degrees but still recovery, whereas I've never seen F-22 did Cobra over 90 degrees. Why?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeczZtRLFZc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrBx6G2O6A4 (1:04 - 1:16)

Both of those clearly go beyond 90°.

In the second video @ 0:38-0:47, I don't recall ever seeing an SU "hold" a cobra for that long.

Really?
Even Rafale can do it
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=oEMKO6Y86mg

Well, apparantly it cannot...nothing even remotely resembling a Cobra in that video. Nice display though - it changes direction very quickly and looks pretty nimble.

No cobra, but very, very impressive. Love how dynamic the routine is, far more so than the Raptor's, which takes forever and a day to transition from one maneuver to the other. The Rafale's is just TIGHT, with one impressive maneuver transitioning seamlessly to another. And, it must be said, the Rafale would totally smoke a Viper in a dogfight. Not even close. Also, figures the French would make the prettiest of the new fighters. It really is a gorgeous design, and gives the Viper a run for its money in that department.

Well, one big factor is that the F-22 demo seems to feature more low speed, post-stall flight. The Rafale demo seems to be performed at higher speeds and really, it doesn't do anything particularly special except turn tightly.

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